SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I messaged AlanH and kcd_swede. I seem to have broken the SGOTM graph display in the process. 
I am sure it will be fine, but let's wait to hear back before we continue to play.
Perhaps we should have stolen Mathematics.
I am quietly optimistic that we will get the Stone site. The barbarians seem to be causing havoc with the AI.
The next tech choice (after we get Math) is the next big decision. I have never played with Aggressive AI, but I gather that they tech more slowly because of their higher unit spam.
Sadly Tokugawa just switched into Hinduism. I had hoped our religion would spread by chance to Lalibela.
I am sure it will be fine, but let's wait to hear back before we continue to play.
Spoiler :
Thanks for your advice and feedback throughout.Very well done,
We could use a spy to steal something from Toku next, either Construction or Calendar is helpful.
Capital could invest some hammers into HE while Rice pudding is producing missionaries.
Perhaps we should have stolen Mathematics.
I am quietly optimistic that we will get the Stone site. The barbarians seem to be causing havoc with the AI.
The next tech choice (after we get Math) is the next big decision. I have never played with Aggressive AI, but I gather that they tech more slowly because of their higher unit spam.
Sadly Tokugawa just switched into Hinduism. I had hoped our religion would spread by chance to Lalibela.
Yea carrying the team.
I fear my prospects are not improving in the near future. Current projects wrap up in late June but there's no telling what I'll do after that.
Sorry for my lack of participation but I warned when I signed up that it may be this way.
carrying the team.I fear my prospects are not improving in the near future. Current projects wrap up in late June but there's no telling what I'll do after that.
Sorry for my lack of participation but I warned when I signed up that it may be this way.
Perhaps you can set aside a long weekend towards the end of the game, kossin, or step forward to play on some days that you find yourself unexpectedly free.
@all: I think the total post count is probably a good, albeit rough indicator of who has contributed what to date, rather than turns (since I am the only one to have played a full set).
I am always happy to help and offer feedback, but we are a small group and this is a team event. So I'd hope that everyone's turns/tests/posts even out a bit by the end of the game. That doesn't mean that they have to be the same, and some people will have more time, OFC, which is fine.
But everyone should contribute some tests, discussions, and play some turns.
Just my 2¢.
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Regarding the save:
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For game discussion, a couple of things:
@all: I think the total post count is probably a good, albeit rough indicator of who has contributed what to date, rather than turns (since I am the only one to have played a full set).
I am always happy to help and offer feedback, but we are a small group and this is a team event. So I'd hope that everyone's turns/tests/posts even out a bit by the end of the game. That doesn't mean that they have to be the same, and some people will have more time, OFC, which is fine.
But everyone should contribute some tests, discussions, and play some turns. Just my 2¢.
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Regarding the save:
kcd_swede said:
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For game discussion, a couple of things:
- We need to create a test file with all of our AIs, to test for trade possibilities. For instance, I couldn't sleep last night and made a quick test with warmongers:
Spoiler :
You can see here that Napoleon stupidly stingy. Some AI will trade Math but won't trade Aesthetics, even though they are not building the wonder. Most importantly, Alexander is actually quite generous. However, in the real game we are Alex's worst enemy. A test file could show us whether it is worthwhile to change this (e.g. if we gift techs to reach +4 diplo, will this open up a specific trade?).
- Early Wonders. Tachy says that for Aggressive AI:
I think we've seen this already. Neither the Pyramids nor the Temple of Artemis have been built.
For us, the Parthenon has been mentioned already. I am thinking about building the Mausoleum of Maussollos, if we want to start a Golden Age to switch into Bureaucracy. We'd gain another 6 turns of Golden Age with the Taj too. Finally, if we secure Stone, the Hanging Gardens is beginning to look attractive to me. None of the AI are building it yet. If we have 10+ cities and whip an Aqueduct in our capital, then the investment (134H) is quite manageable.
- Tech path. I'm running out of time. So, briefly: Civil Service/Music/Construction ? Personally, I'd be happy to use Catapults against Tokugawa, who seems quite weak TBH. But that doesn't mean we'll head for Construction next.
BTW, without wanting to toot my own horn D), I think we are in a pretty good position at present.
Exploration was a little slow. If the Warrior had survived, or the Woodsman II Axe moved a little faster, we might have gotten greater leverage out of Alphabet. That being said: we soon traded for everything the AI was willing to give up.
Not getting Mathematics was our biggest issue. I don't think the timing Monarchy was a big deal. I mean, we were struggling to generate
, not , and delaying the switch allowed us to change into Organized Religion as well.
As for the decision regarding Alpha/Mathematics first. It's a bit of a guessing game on T5. Alpha is the safest economic choice, and the natural way to Currency/CoLs. IIRC, in SGOTM 17 the AI generally went to Iron Working before Math, and Math before Alpha, but that wasn't to be here.
We do have nice cities, though, and they are well managed with improvements/Workers/Granaries etc. TGW is a big deal on this map, and, after all the stress they caused me, it was poetic justice that barbs helped us capture Asoka's last city.
D), I think we are in a pretty good position at present.Exploration was a little slow. If the Warrior had survived, or the Woodsman II Axe moved a little faster, we might have gotten greater leverage out of Alphabet. That being said: we soon traded for everything the AI was willing to give up.
Not getting Mathematics was our biggest issue. I don't think the timing Monarchy was a big deal. I mean, we were struggling to generate
, not , and delaying the switch allowed us to change into Organized Religion as well.As for the decision regarding Alpha/Mathematics first. It's a bit of a guessing game on T5. Alpha is the safest economic choice, and the natural way to Currency/CoLs. IIRC, in SGOTM 17 the AI generally went to Iron Working before Math, and Math before Alpha, but that wasn't to be here.
We do have nice cities, though, and they are well managed with improvements/Workers/Granaries etc. TGW is a big deal on this map, and, after all the stress they caused me, it was poetic justice that barbs helped us capture Asoka's last city.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Got it! Very nice set Doshin, once again. I understand your point and I feared this would be our major difficulty when signing up but that ship has sailed and we have to do our best to keep up the pace (I mean quicken the pace 
). BTW Folket how are your availabilities looking in the next few weeks?
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Preparing some stuff for us to decide regarding grand strategy and the 1 or 2 next milestones (that would ideally correspond to the next 1 or 2 turnsets). I'll try to update OPs this week as well, they've been left abandoned since I moved out.
Once we more or less agree with next milestone (ideally today's discussions will be enough - actually it will have to do because we need to move on!
), we can discuss micro from my PPP for 2/2.5 days: I post a PPP tomorrow, we discuss, I post a final draft Wednesday, we discuss final adjustments and I play the set Thursday and Friday to give us time to discuss unexpected stuff.
Sounds ambitious when I read that again but we never know, we might actually be able to stick to it...
). BTW Folket how are your availabilities looking in the next few weeks?----------------
Preparing some stuff for us to decide regarding grand strategy and the 1 or 2 next milestones (that would ideally correspond to the next 1 or 2 turnsets). I'll try to update OPs this week as well, they've been left abandoned since I moved out.
Once we more or less agree with next milestone (ideally today's discussions will be enough - actually it will have to do because we need to move on!
), we can discuss micro from my PPP for 2/2.5 days: I post a PPP tomorrow, we discuss, I post a final draft Wednesday, we discuss final adjustments and I play the set Thursday and Friday to give us time to discuss unexpected stuff.Sounds ambitious when I read that again but we never know, we might actually be able to stick to it...
The major goal next -- Edu as soon as possible, grow our cities for Universities and then OU.
Short term goals
If we could get Construction fast enough, we can consider taking Toku with catas + WEs slowly.
Expand to 10 cities and grow them in the fastest way with Granaries + CHs + Libs
Diplomacy -- Stay safe by yielding to any tech demand. Keep an eye on the red fists since there's bigger chance that we are the target.
One issue to be considered is what to research after trading Math, Music or CS. I mentioned this in previous post. Moreover, it would be nice if someone could run a test to see when we could build OU and have Cuirs if without further war.
Besides that some are busy in RL, there's also a problem of time zone difference, which is going to delay the feedback.
Short term goals
If we could get Construction fast enough, we can consider taking Toku with catas + WEs slowly.
Expand to 10 cities and grow them in the fastest way with Granaries + CHs + Libs
Diplomacy -- Stay safe by yielding to any tech demand. Keep an eye on the red fists since there's bigger chance that we are the target.
One issue to be considered is what to research after trading Math, Music or CS. I mentioned this in previous post. Moreover, it would be nice if someone could run a test to see when we could build OU and have Cuirs if without further war.
Besides that some are busy in RL, there's also a problem of time zone difference, which is going to delay the feedback.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Grand Strategy update
More or less chronologically...
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Next milestones
Objectives of next set:
Milestones 1 & 2 or just 1 but including war preparation.
Most problematic issue to decide: tech path.
RE: "Paper" exploration
Leader
Will Trade Map
Alexander Friendly
Huyana Capac Pleased
Kublai Khan Pleased
Napoleon Friendly
Tokugawa Neva'
The least difficult we can get a map from peacefully are Kublai OR Huyana if we convert to their religion (during a GA for example). Otherwise it will have to be through extortion or jumping through small diplo hoops. Any other idea? Can vassals refuse to trade maps?
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Choice of Corporation
AFAIC, only 2 Corporation can be really considered: Sid's Sushi Co or Aluminium Co.
Why I am "eliminating" the other Corporations (this can be discussed of course):
Pros and Cons for both
Unfortunately, a lot might depend on what the map reveals. Teleporting in the Barb corner city should be tested.
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Choice of Victory Condition
Conquest, Domination or Diplomatic (UN/AP).
It's probably too early to decide that, but Conquest/Dom seems symbiotic with the Corporation objective.
More or less chronologically...
- Conquer Tokugawa via Construction war.
- Continue prioritizing exploration, study map trades possibilities.
- Get Education and Oxford as early as possible.
- Choose which Corp to aim for (plan to produce the relevant GP...).
- Tech MT/Gunpowder for a Cuirassier corporation-resource-oriented stomp.
- Prioritize Democracy after MT.
- Complete Hidden Objective.
- Claim all corporation resources (without winning by Conquest or Domination before completing all other objectives).
- Research Corp tech and found HQ.
- Win.
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Next milestones
- Finish peaceful expansion while growing and building infra
- Conquer Toku with a Construction war
- "Paper" exploration if possible
- Reach Education and build Oxford
Objectives of next set:
Milestones 1 & 2 or just 1 but including war preparation.
Most problematic issue to decide: tech path.
RE: "Paper" exploration
Alexander Friendly
Huyana Capac Pleased
Kublai Khan Pleased
Napoleon Friendly
Tokugawa Neva'
The least difficult we can get a map from peacefully are Kublai OR Huyana if we convert to their religion (during a GA for example). Otherwise it will have to be through extortion or jumping through small diplo hoops. Any other idea? Can vassals refuse to trade maps?
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Choice of Corporation
AFAIC, only 2 Corporation can be really considered: Sid's Sushi Co or Aluminium Co.
Why I am "eliminating" the other Corporations (this can be discussed of course):
Spoiler :
Pros and Cons for both
Choice #1, Sid's Sushi:
Least expensive beaker-wise
Should be a reasonable amount of resources to claim but not necessarily
Least expensive beaker-wise
Should be a reasonable amount of resources to claim but not necessarily
Choice #2, Aluminium Co:
Has only 1 resource type to claim
Requires to prioritize Steam Power to reveal Coal without delaying the mounted warfare breakout
Expensive beaker-wise but mostly useful techs (including Steam Power that unlocks Dikes which will give a bit of return on Lakes map)
Requires the easiest GP to produce for HQ
Has only 1 resource type to claim
Requires to prioritize Steam Power to reveal Coal without delaying the mounted warfare breakout
Expensive beaker-wise but mostly useful techs (including Steam Power that unlocks Dikes which will give a bit of return on Lakes map)
Requires the easiest GP to produce for HQ
Unfortunately, a lot might depend on what the map reveals. Teleporting in the Barb corner city should be tested.
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Choice of Victory Condition
Conquest, Domination or Diplomatic (UN/AP).
It's probably too early to decide that, but Conquest/Dom seems symbiotic with the Corporation objective.
or 
soundjata
everything
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,652
I am not sure of the best order between researching Democracy and Military Tradition.
There is a slight risk that the hidden objective conflicts with the way we are going to start the war...
Let's say the hidden objective is: reach 50 million population. In this case, heavy whipping of cuirassiers is going to penalise our victory date?
There is a slight risk that the hidden objective conflicts with the way we are going to start the war...
Let's say the hidden objective is: reach 50 million population. In this case, heavy whipping of cuirassiers is going to penalise our victory date?
One issue to be considered is what to research after trading Math, Music or CS.
On this issue, we should roughly plangeneration. It does not need to be exact.
If we generate enough Great People before Civil Service (2? 3?) we could use one of these to switch into Bureaucracy and go to Music afterwards. We may generate a Great Artist of our own, and even if we don't, the Music GArtist can be saved for a later Golden Age.
The AI is nowhere near Music, and our economy will recover with Courthouses.
I think Huayna Capac will be the only AI to self-tech Philosophy. If we want to Lib Military Tradition, we will probably have to bulb this.
RE: "Paper" exploration
Leader Will Trade Map
Alexander Friendly
Huyana Capac Pleased
Kublai Khan Pleased
Napoleon Friendly
Tokugawa Neva'
The least difficult we can get a map from peacefully are Kublai OR Huyana if we convert to their religion (during a GA for example). Otherwise it will have to be through extortion or jumping through small diplo hoops. Any other idea?
Can vassals refuse to trade maps?
It should be easy enough to extort maps in peace deals, alongside some techs. Otherwise, it is a long game and we can explore with a few Cuirassiers if need be.
The game has a 'no vassal' setting, so that won't be an issue.
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Choice of Corporation
I wouldn't rule out Mining Inc. just yet. The resources are fairly easy to connect (unlike Fish/Clams/Crab) and are visible early on. It's usually "safe" to generate a Great Engineer at low odds, by running a Forge spec or building the Pyramids/Hanging Gardens in the National Epic city. It's not exact (you couldn't bulb with it) but it requires bad luck not to generate one.
OFC, it's still not a sure thing, as Kakumeika found out in the last game.
.....I am not sure of the best order between researching Democracy and Military Tradition.
Military Tradition for me.It is a long way off either way.
There is a slight risk that the hidden objective conflicts with the way we are going to start the war...
Let's say the hidden objective is: reach 50 million population. In this case, heavy whipping of cuirassiers is going to penalise our victory date?
Sure, but there will still be a long time between getting Democracy and founding a corporation. If we delay Cuirassiers for so long (Constitution ---> Printing Press ---> Democracy) we'll hurt our empire's development and expansion.
The hidden objective is a big unknown, but I wouldn't beeline it at all costs.
After we have built an army, we'll presumably want to switch into Mercantilism + Representation for the extra. This would be a good time to get to Democracy, I think.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Well sure but if we have to claim all Coal instances, might as well not bother with the other resources...
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
In terms of micro, here is how I am going to approach the PPP tomorrow: making the list of all the infra, improved tiles and maybe troops we think we should get in the next xx turns. If you have suggestions, shoot.
Railroad costs fewer .
If this were a regular map, without a mapmaker influencing things, then Mining Inc. would let us skip both Rifling and Artillery/Flight. Railroad itself is cheaper than Rocketry.
However, if Paratroopers are needed, or if the Democracy variant forces us to tech deeper, then the choice will be less clear cut.
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I give some suggestions for micro in post #789.
It is a good idea to test 10–12 turns ahead, but focus most on the immediate 5–8.
The main short-term goals are Granaries + CHs + Libraries in all cities, in that order of importance. The capital doesn't need a CH now.
Both Golden Sands and Cornish Cow need religion ASAP. As I said, I am not sure which city should receive the first Missionary from Rice Pudding, and which the second.
Sea Horse could perhaps receive a whipped Missionary from Sheepish. Constantinople's Missionary would then go to Stone/Dye. With a border pop, Sea Horse can work the Clams and Horse.
You need to be clear about the micro for settling the Stone/Dye site, i.e. Settler movement and Worker actions. Remember: barbarians can enter Tokugawa's territory.
Constantinople should produce the Settler for the Pigs/Wheat, probably with a 2–pop whip at size 6, once Workers are spare.
Thessalonica receives a border pop in 5 turns, and will need 2 Workers to improve the Rice. After that, 1 Worker should be enough to cottage the Grassland tiles.
I don't think we'll need units.
In the real game, we might consider selling our Copper to Tokugawa when he next gets 1GPT.
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In terms of testing, you could post a save to back up your thoughts.
The first save doesn't have to be perfectly refined. Other players, who aren't so focused on the micro, can often spot underlying weaknesses with build priorities and general strategy. Then they (Duckweed) says: stop doing X, more of Y, and if you disagree you can argue your case.
Also, my micro suggestions are just that, suggestions. Part of the challenge is to do everything as efficiently as possible, and compromises are inevitable.
. If this were a regular map, without a mapmaker influencing things, then Mining Inc. would let us skip both Rifling and Artillery/Flight. Railroad itself is cheaper than Rocketry.
However, if Paratroopers are needed, or if the Democracy variant forces us to tech deeper, then the choice will be less clear cut.
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I give some suggestions for micro in post #789.
It is a good idea to test 10–12 turns ahead, but focus most on the immediate 5–8.
The main short-term goals are Granaries + CHs + Libraries in all cities, in that order of importance. The capital doesn't need a CH now.
Both Golden Sands and Cornish Cow need religion ASAP. As I said, I am not sure which city should receive the first Missionary from Rice Pudding, and which the second.
Sea Horse could perhaps receive a whipped Missionary from Sheepish. Constantinople's Missionary would then go to Stone/Dye. With a border pop, Sea Horse can work the Clams and Horse.
You need to be clear about the micro for settling the Stone/Dye site, i.e. Settler movement and Worker actions. Remember: barbarians can enter Tokugawa's territory.
Constantinople should produce the Settler for the Pigs/Wheat, probably with a 2–pop whip at size 6, once Workers are spare.
Thessalonica receives a border pop in 5 turns, and will need 2 Workers to improve the Rice. After that, 1 Worker should be enough to cottage the Grassland tiles.
I don't think we'll need units.
In the real game, we might consider selling our Copper to Tokugawa when he next gets 1GPT.
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In terms of testing, you could post a save to back up your thoughts.
The first save doesn't have to be perfectly refined. Other players, who aren't so focused on the micro, can often spot underlying weaknesses with build priorities and general strategy. Then they (Duckweed
) says: stop doing X, more of Y, and if you disagree you can argue your case.Also, my micro suggestions are just that, suggestions.
Part of the challenge is to do everything as efficiently as possible, and compromises are inevitable.@pomthom
You don't need to consider too further for now. If you have enough time and willing to complete the following goals, it will probably take you to ~1AD.
In short, the next stage is to consolidate current empire and be ready for the final push to Cuis. Of course, never ignore safety and opportunity.
The next war is not a clear goal. DOWing Toku with Catas + WEs might face very tough situation. It's very likely that Toku already has LB when we are ready to attack. Moreover, his tech rate is good enough and the diplomatic situation allows him to bribe at least KK to fight on his side.
Edit: About whipping CH and Lib
Be careful about whipping these two. We could delay lib as late as when we start to resume research again. For CH, you could whip away citizens on non resource farm and mine tiles in the 1st available time. But when whipping away commercial tiles like cottages, you need to judge whether the gain worth the whipping instantly.
You don't need to consider too further for now. If you have enough time and willing to complete the following goals, it will probably take you to ~1AD.
In short, the next stage is to consolidate current empire and be ready for the final push to Cuis. Of course, never ignore safety and opportunity.
The next war is not a clear goal. DOWing Toku with Catas + WEs might face very tough situation. It's very likely that Toku already has LB when we are ready to attack. Moreover, his tech rate is good enough and the diplomatic situation allows him to bribe at least KK to fight on his side.
Edit: About whipping CH and Lib
Be careful about whipping these two. We could delay lib as late as when we start to resume research again. For CH, you could whip away citizens on non resource farm and mine tiles in the 1st available time. But when whipping away commercial tiles like cottages, you need to judge whether the gain worth the whipping instantly.
More reasons to bulb Phi are
We need it for Pacifism
Stop other AIs (especially HC) attempting Nat and hence Taj.
I've been staring at the Stone/Dye site for a while. Since the Longbow plundered the road, the earliest we can settle (1N of the Dye) is T79:
If Tokugawa builds a road on the Corn IBT, we can settle on T78, because the Settler can make it to the tile 2N of Lalibela on T77. Toku will need to have to have a Worker (or two?) within range, because the road was only just plundered (IBT, T74/5).
Otherwise, if we road the Jungle on T76, and the Corn on T77, the Settler (and both Workers) will get stuck on the Dye on T78.
So, the most efficient way, in terms of Worker turns, is to have one Worker road in place and another move 1NE to the Dye (= T76). The first road will then complete on T77; the Dye road on T78.
If Tokugawa doesn't road the Corn for us, the first Worker (who roads 2N of Lalibela) can move to the Corn (= T78, 1/2) and finish on the turn that the city is settled (= T79, 2/2, then settle).
I hope that makes sense. It was unfortunate that the LB chose to plunder twice.
Spoiler :
If Tokugawa builds a road on the Corn IBT, we can settle on T78, because the Settler can make it to the tile 2N of Lalibela on T77. Toku will need to have to have a Worker (or two?) within range, because the road was only just plundered (IBT, T74/5).
Otherwise, if we road the Jungle on T76, and the Corn on T77, the Settler (and both Workers) will get stuck on the Dye on T78.
So, the most efficient way, in terms of Worker turns, is to have one Worker road in place and another move 1NE to the Dye (= T76). The first road will then complete on T77; the Dye road on T78.
If Tokugawa doesn't road the Corn for us, the first Worker (who roads 2N of Lalibela) can move to the Corn (= T78, 1/2) and finish on the turn that the city is settled (= T79, 2/2, then settle).
I hope that makes sense. It was unfortunate that the LB chose to plunder twice.
Got it! Very nice set Doshin, once again. I understand your point and I feared this would be our major difficulty when signing up but that ship has sailed and we have to do our best to keep up the pace (I mean quicken the pace
I will be away on delivery from tomorrow until Friday. After that this project should be almost finished and I will have more time.
