Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.
I can play.
Early Henge is most likely, however, in the Late and 'Criminal' Henge scenarios, I see a silver lining. That indicates that NZ likely wanted to give us lots of room to do early wonders if we so choose. Denying the AI stone/marble or even very good tiles to work. Of course, he could have denied them stone, but gave them marble, so I guess we can only infer that stone wonders got delayed if we see Henge go T75+.
In other words: I'm hoping late Henge means late Oracle.
I don't want to make all those sacrifices for T76 Oracle. I'm still happy with T86, but agree we should push it to <=T80.
@MirrorGuard Then you're up after Kait.
If we don't push the Oracle hard, we risk not getting it, right? Look at it this way, if we get the Oracle on T76 instead of T80ish, we may have made some sacrifices but we accomplish a few things:
1. We give ourselves a better shot at pulling it off.
2. We get the use of Bureaucracy 4ish turns sooner which should make up for some of the sacrifices.
3. We get IW and gems online 4ish turns sooner which should also make up for some of the sacrifices.
4. Snowball gets bigger a bit earlier...
If we agree that we're sacrificing too much for a T76 Oracle, then we should outline exactly which sacrifices we're not willing to make (e.g. chop less, grow cities more, build up city infra more, etc.). Kait has put together an incredible plan for T76 but it seems like the allowed variables/levers he can manipulate might be less that he was expecting.
Regarding barely eeking out a tech by a beaker or two (or missing by a beaker or two), keep in mind that in the test game we have met a second AI so beakers in the real game could be different. I will update to the test game to remove the offending AI and to remove the two forests that WT planted during his testing.
I think point is : we're melting the snowball with T76 Oracle.
Updated test game.
I also had to gift resources to Zara to get the same health situation. Three cities (Canal, Silver and Profit) only have 4 in the real game; it was 6 in the test game without the resource gifts. I doubt those cities were growing to 5 pops but just in case.
This is also kinda the opposite. We produce less failgold and burn it all up to get CoL. Not much left to get us IW, currency, or whatever next.
Then instead of 3t to IW, it could be 8t.
OK, so what sacrifices did Kait make in his T76 run that we should not make? Having constraints should help nail down the details. Is it only the extra chop in Profit or is it all/most pre-Math chops? Anything else you think we should avoid doing?
I just looked at the test game Kait uploaded. It does look like he grew all of our cities and worked coastal tiles to maximize commerce. There is little-to-no whip anger in our cities which means that we didn't produce as much as we could have. I'm assuming that most Wonder Bread gold came from forest chops rather than whip OF.
So I agree that if we could come up with a slightly more balanced approach that has a T80ish Oracle, our empire would be in a better position to push beyond the Oracle and be further along in the long run (i.e. maybe Education is several turns sooner, etc.).
In case you missed it, here's what measures Kait said he took to get T77 (almost T76)
So you would rather simply maximizer fail gold, even to the point of the AI finishing GW for us? And at the risk of losing the Oracle? If so, then our goal is to maximize SH, then GW, ASAP. If as a consequence we get the Oracle, good, all the better.
Sorta. I'd like to make some small tradeoffs to get Oracle sooner but not bend over backwards.
And I'm not saying do SH, and then GW, cus if we bet the farm on SH and it doesn't cash out, we really delay Oracle. The GW we know we can trigger cashout if needed, so we have to hit that hardest, but not ignore SH. I would take a look at what our cities have planned. If, for example, we know we can put 60h into GW on 70 and 71 then maybe don't finish it on 69. (I assume SH is gone.) When there's a lull in our maxOF, maybe that's the time to finish GW. Or, if for some strange reason SH hasn't been built, then we can probably cashout GW T69 cus we can continue to load up SH
I'm interested to see the latest PPP.
I actually can't even decide what to wish for here. I think I'd rather just get the spy wonder out of the way. But we lose 100+ failgold and when that spy is born in the future.. .
Kremlin isn't that big with stone. And could we use it?
Bending over backwards is better than getting bent over forwards. But I get your point and agree.
We’ll have the Confucian holy city. The GSpy will score us a valuable tech or more. Techs that don’t have to be GS bulbable.
Some AIs might not even be far, as the crow flies.
stealing tech? hmmm. Normally I figure I can trade for anything they have, but if they have a monopoly, and we can't wait. Maybe this will pay off.
What is it? 3000 EPs?
Yes, we'd get 3,000 EPs if we use a GSpy to infiltrate the AI. The tech cost in EPs has many factors so I'm not sure how expensive of a tech we could get for those 3,000 EPs. He might be better used for a Golden Age.
Other than GSs for bulbing and one GM for Sushi, what other great people do we want? I'm assuming we'd want 3 mongrels for 2 Golden Ages but what else?
we may use the music artist and we will have a late spy from Communism that probably can't help with GAges.
The goal would be all GS's
Without a TR, Confu spread to his city, distance 36, 3000eps gets about a 7000b tech. With TR, 8700b. Add a second GSpy w/TR, 9500b.
Once we meet the AIs, if any are teching fast, we might want to focus on eps.
Anyone know the maxplotdistance for this scenario? 62?
Geez, why don't I steal tech more often?
Biggest problem is going to be the AI speed. Let's see if I can guess what tech we have a chance in of the AI researching in time:
(things like Mono, Alpha, Monarchy, archery, HBR are all pretty easy to get in trade. Calendar if we are not building MoM we can wait for that.)
I'm trying to think late game...
Compass + Optics + Astronomy is something they could get mid-game.
maybe ReplaceableParts (give them Banking + PPress)
One thing I know they'll research (if we gift them Liberalism+SciMeth) is Communism cus they want the spy.
If we don't have to build Kremlin, we can wait for it...but not too long. Sadly, we can't give them Liberalism until we have it which means we are already at Medicine.
Boy, it would be a huge 'big picture' decision to nurture the AI so the can help us.
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