[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I finally grasping the WB economy. At 50gpt maintenance, SH ideally gives us 115*7/50 = 16t of research.
GW = 20t
Moai = 27t
Mids = 50+ t, and so on...

7 cities can only whip 7 of 10t, putting about 75h*7/10 = 52hpt. Breakeven. Except when we have to complete the wonder ourselves. Plus 3 of 10t unwhipped hammers in times up to 7 wonders available as possible.

Doesn’t work under castes.

Since we can only complete 7 GWs, this scenario may nerf the WB economy by using AIs who won’t/can’t complete GWs.

T81 Oracle Slingshot
10t * -50g = -500g. (t70-80)
7t * 70h = 490g (t63-70)
~115h in SH already

Should we just plan to complete GW in our Spy city, if necessary?

WB Economy, More Thoughts

1. Having few required builds right now (granary, lh, wbs, garrisons), and needing max failgold, we should:

• maxOF whip every build feasible into 2x-stone failgold
• build every stone wonder every turn possible
• minimize non-maxOF whips

2. Strategic resources: build and work mines as soon as feasible everywhere, enabling spawning possibilities.

Spoiler tl;dr :

Whipping useless builds for Max OF is a huge waste of hammers. It might make more sense to whip or build fewer work boats in cows and build them with mines in distant cities, so they can whip them with Max OF. Less travel time, more useful maxOF whips with whip unhappiness spread around our empire.

 

[WastinTime]

maxOF whip every build feasible into 2x-stone failgold

Now, you're starting to feel it! Yes, post-granary my rule was to try to never cross the whip barrier or finish any build organically. So (pre-forge) 29h max into just about anything. So it's not just MaxOF, but max pop/maxOF.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Now, you're starting to feel it! Yes, post-granary my rule was to try to never cross the whip barrier or finish any build organically. So (pre-forge) 29h max into just about anything. So it's not just MaxOF, but max pop/maxOF.

WB Economy, Even More

Virtually all techs have a 20% multiplier. With our high maintenance, the 2X coins are worth far more, for example, than the 25% beaker multiplier from the library. The only limitation is having a surplus of coins. I don’t think that’s likely in this scenario.

So until we’re having a surplus of coins, it makes more sense to prioritize coins over infrastructure, meaning exactly what you said, build the library to max 0F, then whip it.

The only exception to this, in general, is the Oracle.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Remotely possible even one more...

Failed to get Oracle on T78 by 4h...

 

[Mitchum]

So where are we with the PPP?

Are we going with Writing -> PH or PH -> Writing?

Are we going to try to eliminate any of the pre-Math chops or is Kait's plan good as it is since many are non-BFC forests that are stone-enhanced to speed up our research?

Are we all agreed to actually try to complete the GW in Canal if it's not completed earlier? I'm fine with this but I'm not sure it was agreed by all. Would it be better to whip the GW directly or whip something into the GW to complete it?

Are there any other unanswered questions that need discussion?

BTW, can someone remind me about the Halt Growth trick and what the benefit is?

 

[Mitchum]

Failed to get Oracle on T78 by 4h...

In your testing, is the limiting factor the Oracle or teching CoL/Math in time? I thought research was the bottleneck...

 

[Mitchum]

I just noticed that we've met a second AI in the test game. Keep in mind that this could slightly mess up our beakers for techs like Mediation and PH if both the AI in the test game know them but we don't meet any AI in the real game that also know them...

 

[LowtherCastle]

In your testing, is the limiting factor the Oracle or teching CoL/Math in time? I thought research was the bottleneck...

i’m only testing how fast we can get the Oracle built in Profit.

 

[LowtherCastle]

BTW, can someone remind me about the Halt Growth trick and what the benefit is?

If you Turn On Avoid Growth before the city grows, then the one-time doubling of food for completing the granary doesn’t occur till the turn you Turn Off Avoid Growth.

Most extreme example:
Bad: T1 granary is built when city just grew to pop2 with 0f extra. T2 city puts 5f into granary. (Eg, 5/24f)

Good: T1 granary built, city held growth at p1, 22/22f. T22 +5f => 10/24f.

It’s not necessarily a good thing, for example if growing allows you to work a really good tile a turn sooner. It basically allows you to compensate for not timing the completion well (11/22f).

 

[Kaitzilla]

Failed to get Oracle on T78 by 4h...

Could always do the dun whip on T77 and whip oracle T79, but that feels dirty.

Close with Oracle T67, Warrior T68, Dun T69, Oracle T70-T75, Whip Warrior T76, Dun T77, whip Dun T78, Oracle T79
1 short I think

Wait, T78 Oracle was close?
You got T79 Oracle with Warrior whip?

 

[WastinTime]

I don't think we're getting CoL that soon are we? Or can we if Henge goes around T68?

 

[Kaitzilla]

So where are we with the PPP?

Are we going with Writing -> PH or PH -> Writing?

Are we going to try to eliminate any of the pre-Math chops or is Kait's plan good as it is since many are non-BFC forests that are stone-enhanced to speed up our research?

Are we all agreed to actually try to complete the GW in Canal if it's not completed earlier? I'm fine with this but I'm not sure it was agreed by all. Would it be better to whip the GW directly or whip something into the GW to complete it?

Are there any other unanswered questions that need discussion?

BTW, can someone remind me about the Halt Growth trick and what the benefit is?

Testing now to see whether Priesthood 1st is better.
I am feeling under the weather enough to affect me if I play, so I don't think I my turnset wI'll be over until this weekend.

I love the Great Wall in Canal City T72.
We get 60 on T73 and 282 on T74.
Don't have to wait on any AI to get it.

Great Wall is 102/150 on T72.
Can't really think of anything to whip with 3 population in Canal on T71 that would overflow 24 base

The Stop Growth button is nice because it gives cities that completed Granary late 1 extra turn to build up the food storage.

Try a test game both ways and see the extra for yourself.

Biggest not answered question is the final settler.
Do I move them to a specific site in my turnset?

 

[Kaitzilla]

I don't think we're getting CoL that soon are we? Or can we if Henge goes around T68?

If we got Henge gold T65, that would be ideal.
Earlier is less money obviously.
Later than T72 and it speeds us up only when the 342 from Great Wall wears off.

This might be a situation where biary slider becomes a bad idea T65 to T72.
We want to be broke when the henge gold hits, and we know exactly what we want to tech.

Also, if we skip roading cows I can get the fur road done 1 turn early and chop for Stonehenge T63 instead of T64.
The extra turn could be used to chop that tndrariverforest into Great Wall instead of the more valuable plainriverforest.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Wait, T78 Oracle was close?
You got T79 Oracle with Warrior whip?

MM Virtually identical to yours, just that one turn of warrior build and then alternating whips and oracle builds at the end. Assumes T 73 priesthood.

Dun only needs 36 hammers pre-whip for maxOF.

 

[LowtherCastle]

My T78 attempt took the Dun to 12h, built the warrior 1t T69 iirc, then Oracle T70-72, Dun 2t @12hpt to 36h. Falls 4h shy.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't think we're getting CoL that soon are we? Or can we if Henge goes around T68?

Your mission, WT, should you decide to accept it, is to get us COL by T79 into 80.

If we lose Oracle, let’s lose it on or before T79.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Biggest not answered question is the final settler.
Do I move them to a specific site in my turnset?

My thinking is bring the galley back south and under to grab S7 T59 at Mount TwoTurdsHumping-1s, drop S7 off in Canal and pick up chariot at Canal-1s3w T65.

S7 positions to enter SB from Canal-3s3e (if still possible) immediately upon OBs (depends on when SH drops. S7 goes due south, hoping that isthmus goes south.

Ben Hur follows up, going east.

The galley is then positioned to collect S7 and return to 2clams if needed.

This is all based on the hope there’s a nice site close to Science. If not, fkitall.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Your mission, WT, should you decide to accept it, is to get us COL by T79 into 80.

If we lose Oracle, let’s lose it on or before T79.

I have checked WastinTime's suggestion to ignore Granary and Deer in Cow City starting on T55, and it speeds up our teching in the short and medium term quite nicely!
The long term pain comes after Civil Service I think.

Can start Dun as early as T58 in Profit, Oracle T64, Library + Math T68.

This compares favorably to the original PPP plan where Cow City whips a Granary and works Plainsriverfarm a lot.(Can start Dun T60, Oracle T73, Library T66, and Math T73)

Spoiler :

Techs
T55 - T57 Masonry 0%
T58 - Masonry 100%
T59 - Masonry 70%
T60 - T62 Writing 0%
T63 - T64 Writing 100%
T65 - Writing 50% (Or 100% if Stonehenge money came in)
T66 - T69 Meditation 0% (Or 100% if Stonehenge money came in)
T70 - T71 Meditation 100%
T72 - 70% Priesthood (Or 100% if Stonehenge money came in)

Cow City will have a bit less fail for Stonehenge(-36) and Great Wall(-6) by the start of Turn 69, but oh well.
If Stonehenge is still not completed by the AI, Cow City can put another 16 into Stonehenge on T69 and T70 to make up for the "loss" compared to my baseline PPP.

All 4 Workboats still get produced, and the 1st Stonehenge chop still lands T63 in Cow City.

The most startling thing is Dun on T58!
By ignoring Granary in Profit City, we can get 41/150 in Oracle by Turn 75, 1-pop whip 32/50 Dun with Clam + stone, and double chop Oracle complete on T76 (46+30+30+4).

Spoiler :

All 4 of our Workers would need to bust their butts to get down south again to prechop, connect the deer road by T74, and perform a double chop.
So no farms for Science city, or chops for Mids, or road for rice.

**Edit**
Uhh, that is the extreme, we won't have Math by T75 or Code of Laws by T76 even with Stonehenge fail gold.

**Edit 2**
Fixed Oracle Dun overflow to 46, not 50.
Forgot giving away stone after dun whip reduces what stone quarry contributes.

 

[Mitchum]

I have checked WastinTime's suggestion to ignore Granary and Deer in Cow City starting on T55, and it speeds up our teching in the short and medium term quite nicely!

There are obviously a ton of variables like when SH fail gold comes in but about what turn are you getting Math and CoL?

The long term pain comes after Civil Service I think.

Can you elaborate?

Uhh, that is the extreme, we won't have Math by T75 or Code of Laws by T76 even with Stonehenge fail gold.

Right, we have to balance the Oracle date with when we can finish Math + CoL. We might be able to get away with one chop into the Oracle and time it with when research will be done.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Can you elaborate?

Mainly just Cow City and Whale City missing a Granary.
Not too much pain, I think Wastintime's idea is better than my PPP now.

Right, we have to balance the Oracle date with when we can finish Math + CoL. We might be able to get away with one chop into the Oracle and time it with when research will be done.

1 less chop? hmm

T77 Oracle has 54/150
T77 Whip Dun, give away stone, work Stone + Tundraforest
T78 Oracle chop forest work Stone + Crab
T79 Oracle has 135/150 whip complete

Yes, that would save 1 forest.

There are obviously a ton of variables like when SH fail gold comes in but about what turn are you getting Math and CoL?

Working on it.