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[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Any city that builds an early wonder should try to get a library up ASAP and run 2 scientists non-stop (or more if in Caste) to lower the chances of getting a non-GS. Our first great person should be a pure-bred GS from Science but after that, all bets are off. These early wonders really could mess with our gene pool. Maybe we shouldn't complete the Great Wall unless we absolutely need to cash in on the fail gold. We'll already have the Oracle and the 'Mids dirty gene pools to deal with so why add to our mess if we don't have to?
     
  2. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Nurturing the AI is a great plan in Religious, Diplo and Space games but not so much for Conquest or Domination. Should we consider putting diplo back on the table? This would allow us to trade/gift techs liberally and likely shave many turns off of our research by getting some mid and late-game techs from the AI. We have a love fest going so we don't have to build a big army.

    The trick will be that we can't pick our opponent by building the UN and gifting the city to an AI. We also won't be the biggest AI so we have to build the UN ourselves. Diplo games can be complicated but the tech pace can be a lot faster than in a kill 'em all game.
     
  3. MirrorGuard

    MirrorGuard Prince

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    I generate 7 games and put 2~3 Ind AIs in with temperate climate. 1st and 2nd game SH comes at early T50s GW at late T50s, Oracle at ~T75(I forgot to write it down..) The rest looks like this
    SH GW Oracle
    64 87 96
    47 53 72
    45 58 83
    65 78 86 (note:1st religion at t16)
    63 49 80 (1st religion at t17)
    None of these games Oracle maker has access to marble except last 1(but in this game Roosevelt built Oracle in New York instead of capital city). It seems that no barbarians doesn't stop AI from building GW. The ETA of SH failgold is correlated to the availability of mysticism. In our game is Mysticism given to all AIs already? The ETA of GW failgold spreads in a larger time domain if we don't complete it ourselves. And T80 Oracle doesn't look as risky....if the Oracle contender has no marble.
     
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  4. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    With no iron or copper, when could we stop building warriors? Rifling or Mil Science, right? So we could run HR with a gazillion warriors to boost our population.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I don't think we ever have to stop. Even with gunpowder.
     
  6. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Thanks for running these tests. I was thinking about doing the same thing but I never got around to it.

    Earliest Oracle is T72 which also had early dates for SH and GW. My guess is that if those first two wonders go early, the AI are likely to start on the Oracle. I'm also guessing that they won't start the Oracle if the GW or SH are still available.

    I think we should monitor the dates of SW and GW to see if we're in a more accelerated game or a slower one. If at least SW or GW are still available on T60, a sub-T80 Oracle should be safe. If both are gone by T60ish, we could be in trouble.

    Kait, in the next 10 turns does the MM diverge greatly between the fastest possible Oracle and a T80ish Oracle?
     
  7. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Do we have enough food to really need HR? Or are you thinking we might need it due to whip :mad:?

    I see us running Representation most if not all of the game.
     
  8. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ok, after everyone's feedback I was able to get the chops for Oracle -> Civil Service in on Turn 77.
    The empire development did not suffer nearly as much as Turn 76 chop into Oracle.

    Silver City did not get a Lighthouse, and that is about it. :)

    Key changes were Rex only chopped 1 forest instead of 2 for Canal City.
    This is because it was possible to add Turn 59 - Turn 63 1:hammers: per turn to Great Wall in Canal City.
    This led to 86/150 after the chop, and later on Turn 68 I was able to work a 2:hammers: hill to get 90/150. (no chop required)
    I looked at it every possible way to get 90/150 during the singular chop on Turn 64 trying to free up T68 to add some more Great Wall fail gold in Cow City, but Canal City just does not have 2:food: to spare. :sad:

    The saved forest in Canal City let Rex go back and farm up our capital 5 turns earlier.

    Science City did NOT 1-pop whip 30:hammers: more into Great Wall to go above 150.
    The extra population got Library done faster and later got x2 scientists to work at Size 6 for 1 turn.
    Probably a loss in beakers, but the capital is better off with more food and less whip anger.


    Turn 77 Oracle -> Civil Service all depends on getting our Stonehenge 116:gold:gold by Turn 67. :hmm:

    With 116:gold: from Stonehenge by Turn 67, I ran out of gold around Turn 76.
    T75 - 100% slider Worked 2 scientists in capital for 1 turn since the city reached Size 6.
    T76 - 80% slider (whipped Dun in Science City)
    T77 - 60% slider (thanks to +10:gold: overflow from Dun whip in Science City)
    Need +49:gold: more to run 100% slider on T76 and T77.

    We had 10:gold: to spare at the end, so T77 Oracle is pretty tight with good empire development and careful use of forests.
    Spoiler :

    If we hit Turn 67 and Stonehenge is late, we might want to consider Turn 75 Oracle -> Currency
    Currency is half as good as Civil Service, we don't need Code of Laws (just Math), the trade routes give just as good an economic boost as Bureau, and it gives +20% research bonus for Code of Laws.
    If the AI completes Great Wall, we get an extra chunk of coins.
    In this scenario we could just build Great Wall fail gold into the 70's and limp our way to Math and Currency.

    The Dun whip in Science City on T76 at the same time Dun was whipped in Profit City led to a huge +50:hammers: overflow and +10:gold: extra too on T77.
    With 2 +24:hammers: chops landing T78, and a revolt to bureau, Science City can have 352:hammers: in Mids on Turn 80 I think.

    Dun whip in capital T76 makes sense because Bureau +50% hammer bonus will mess up the sweet 50:hammers: Dun overflow by capping it to 33:hammers:.

    I'll try to have the PPP micro up in 12 hours.
    Turn 56 the northern island will have x3 fish and copper hill right? :lol:

    Please give a thought to Kremlin and if we really want Great Wall.
    We don't have to commit to Great Wall until Turn 69.
    45:hammers: whips are so sweet if we can build Kremlin fast enough.
    A shame State Property is an almost useless Civic for us.


    Oracle in Profit makes too much sense.
    Free tech + Marble in the future + General City can go somewhere more important.

    Civil Service remains compelling because after that we can tech Paper with Representation Caste Scientists and we can double bulb Education for extremely fast Oxford with only 1 University needed.
    Note that Education comes before Alphabet and Philosophy.
    https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/references/great-people-tech-preferences/
     

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    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  9. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Only pure blood and late wonders for us! :lol:
     
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    As long as we get Turn 58 Masonry and Dun started in Profit, the next 10 turns are not that much different in all my variations.
    Things don't get very interesting until Stone on T63.

    The micromanagement becomes an issue on T66 if we don't get the "Stonehenge" completed message.
    At that point T77 Oracle becomes unrealistic, and we need to get some extra gold out of Great Wall somehow.
    Unfortunately, there is no way to add much to Great Wall on Turn 68 or Turn 69.
    Canal City is maxed because it is whipping it complete T69 normally.
    Science City is maxed if we 1-pop whip it.
    Cows City is at 96/150.
    Silver City is at 64/150.
    Whale and Profit are useless.
    And that's it, all 6 cities.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  11. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Thanks for testing this MirrorGuard.

    AI building Great Wall before Turn 60 would suck for us. :crazyeye:
     
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Where did you set up the pillage tile for the stone/dun trick?

    It looks like you grew Canal and Silver past 4 pops in this run? The health cap in those cities is only 4:health: on T55 because we traded away two health resources that we only have a single copy of (although in the final save it looks like it's only sheep so we netted more seafood). The fix is easy, just cancel trades with SB in the real game as required as we get :yuck: in our cities. Be on the lookout for it so you cancel the trades at the correct time. I updated the test save by trading away the same resources on T55 to SB. Use my updated test save to make sure that the MM still works and to give you an idea of when you'd need to cancel the trades.

    In the updated test game, I also removed the forests WT grew.

    You've also met a few AI in the save beside Zara. We should avoid doing that in our test games to avoid getting bonus beakers that won't be there in the real game. I tried to address this in my updated test save too.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  13. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    The pillage tile is 1S1E of deer.

    I was careful to check the AI techs before moving slider up from 0%.
    It should be accurate.

    Ya, cancel trades if any unhealthiness spotted.
     
  14. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I see that you built roads at Science-SW and Science-SW-SW. These roads will minimize the chance of forest/jungle growth. Are we supposed to avoid this to maximize the chance of forest/jungle growth? I recall WT talking about this 1000s of posts ago.

    EDIT: xpost I see this road network is used for the pillage trick.
     
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ya, might have to cottage that tundra river tile with the road.
    At least it will connect gems for us.

    Wish there was a better resource than deer to trade with stone.
    That 4 tile road takes 14 worker turns.
     
  16. MirrorGuard

    MirrorGuard Prince

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    How about shifting the road up by 1 tile, from science 1w->2w1s jungle->3w2s tundra forest->deer? Science 1w can grow only after trees spread to adjacent tiles.
     
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  17. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Could give us a workable window before for switching into rep if we get monarchy early enough. Our happiness Is limiting. Gives us something to build if we have nothing else for periods.
     
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    :goodjob:

    Exactly. We’re farming science-west anyway.
     
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Amazing planning, Kait!!! :goodjob:
     
  20. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    As a temporary solution, maybe connect the Silver deer instead...and simply pillage the camp. Not sure if you have those wkr-ts and warrior available...
    Spoiler Pros and cons of deer-1s1e :

    I get your choice here. I’ll just throw out this as food for thought. That requires two workers to get it back online in one turn whereas deer-2s2E only requires one worker.

    Long term deer-2S2E also gives us the option to pillage it before 500c and shift one road further south which will last till 5000c. (cathedrals...)

    And it roads a gems tile we need roaded.

    Of course, long term our workers might have nothing to do so simply pillaging a deer camp might be the simplest solution.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020

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