[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[WastinTime]

We can’t commit to any GM Great Wonder until we know we can meet all AIs, right?

I didn't think of it like that. So UN is the only victory if someone is in an ice palace. I find it very hard to believe NZ would do that. I'd be willing to gamble if we really want a GM wonder. Not sure we can even get GLH if we want it. SB had sailing like 1000 years or more.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I didn't think of it like that. So UN is the only victory if someone is in an ice palace. I find it very hard to believe NZ would do that. I'd be willing to gamble if we really want a GM wonder. Not sure we can even get GLH if we want it. SB had sailing like 1000 years or more.

NZ: “No - as I said teams meeting all the requirements are ranked first, I've got a particular scenario in mind that I was trying to account for but am not saying anything more right now!”

 

[Kaitzilla]

@MMT55 Priorities

• Plan CS-slingshot for T80?
• Prepare for max-OF (~60hpt) into SH, GW, Mids, every turn, starting T62 (into T63).
• Prepare to create max-OF duns from T63 on.
• Create pillage connection to Cow deer
• Seafood nets
• Granaries and lighthouses
• Ruthless Whipping
• NW exploring wb
• Chariot or scout for SB?
• City 7 site? Before IW?
• Connect a fur
• 7 Garrisons total
• ???

I've done a rough draft test game with what I felt are the best choices. (nowhere near the deep dives to T81 you guys are doing )

No 7th city

Put 29/60 into Worker in capital, then whipped with overflow completing Granary in 1 turn.
Chariot -> Warrior -> Whip Chariot -> Overflow into Pyramids

Cows City went Whip Workboat -> Workboat -> Granary -> Whip Granary -> Workboat (exploration) -> Barracks -> 1-pop whip barracks -> overflow+chop into Stonehenge T64

Goal is to finish Pyramids in Cow City around T75 and get Mids fail gold (chops outside BFC?) from capital.
Cow, Capital, and Canal all used the halt growth button after whipping Granary.​

Capital worker cottaged for 1 turn, then got on ship to go improve stone
New 5th worker finished cottage 1W of capital, then went pre-chopping (could also go chop and mine Canal. It could also just prechop all the suitable forests outside capital BFC)
Shephard roaded fur+cow, then chopped a prime forest into Stonehenge for Cow City

Stonehenge is ??? timing

Spoiler :

We can’t commit to any GM Great Wonder until we know we can meet all AIs, right?

Do we really want to gamble and skip The Great Lighthouse or Colossus though?

The U.N. does let us meet all AI in the game once it is completed ya.
Ice palace AI are much harder to meet/conquer without being able to teleport by giving away cities.
No vassals either.

The walls trick is great, but as LC said, it won't help Oracle much. Here's where I stand on Oracle (in case all my waffling has you confused)

Skip IW. (Oracle is coming too fast)
Net crab T60 (don't be late or Oracle is delayed)
Stone T63 (no wiggle room, must have 2 workers start T60 or Oracle is delayed)
Oracle T81

Profit : T53-59 : Work forest instead of coast (for 14/60 granary)
T60-61 :crab
T62 (grow) : crab + forest 18/60 granary
T63-64 : crab + stone (26/60 granary)
T65 : Priesthood/Oracle
T70 (grow to 3) work whale
T79: (grow to 4) whip granary (crab + stone)
T80: Complete Oracle with 2 chops with zero to spare. (If I counted correctly)

CoL should be there in time IIF the AI completes SH or GW in the early T70's (or late 60's)
If it's after T75, we probably have to delay Oracle waiting for CoL.

Ah, thanks for doing the work already WT.

So that's how Profit does Turn 80 Oracle.​

 

[WastinTime]

NZ: “No - as I said teams meeting all the requirements are ranked first, I've got a particular scenario in mind that I was trying to account for but am not saying anything more right now!”

but you can still meet all the requirements. You just need to win. There's always paratroopers....or Time Victory

 

[WastinTime]

instead of barracks in Cows, how about another wb? We still need more for Whales, Silver, or even Canal--but I think Canal has that handled eventually.

Science will put OF into GW if it's still available, right? then Mids.

 

[Kaitzilla]

instead of barracks in Cows, how about another wb? We still need more for Whales, Silver, or even Canal--but I think Canal has that handled eventually.

Science will put OF into GW if it's still available, right? then Mids.

Ya, Workboat is better than Barracks now that you mention it.

I favor Mids much more than GW because we can cash out Mids when we want.

 

[WastinTime]

we can cash out Mids when we want.

But GW almost has to go before Mids.
However, I'll make you a deal. If we have enough failgold already in SH/GW to make it to CoL T81, then we can move on to mids.
Or, of course, if Science has already maxed out GW.

Any prediction on Mids? I don't see it being ready for the (possible) Bureaucracy switch, but I didn't look at it yet.
We gotta optimize 2 civics per anarchy. Maybe OrgRel with Bureau? Long way off.

 

[Kaitzilla]

But GW almost has to go before Mids.
However, I'll make you a deal. If we have enough failgold already in SH/GW to make it to CoL T81, then we can move on to mids.
Or, of course, if Science has already maxed out GW.

Any prediction on Mids? I don't see it being ready for the (possible) Bureaucracy switch, but I didn't look at it yet.
We gotta optimize 2 civics per anarchy. Maybe OrgRel with Bureau? Long way off.

I've got T79 Mids with no math, or T76 Mids with no math and no extra failgold for Stonehenge in Cows City.

I am unsure if Mids with a decent chunk of fail gold in the capital from Mids is a good play to get us Oracle -> Civil Service



If no one completes Stonehenge, we are in trouble around T69.
Our tech rate sucks due to high maintenance, but then again it is only 1800BC.

The dun trick is the only way to get T80 Oracle currently since we can't get Priesthood by T65.

Max overflow Granary in Canal City does generate +62 extra in Stonehenge, but slows the city down noticeably.

1 of the Workers returning from Profit City can cottage capital if we make a 5th worker on T57.
Don't need the deer road for the Dun trick until around uhh, T79 I think.

Spoiler :

Screenshot fixed

If we do the T76 Mids, we could try for COL before Math.
Caste + Representation, and we could run +6 scientists without any Libraries to get Math.
Our 7th city could run artist to pop borders.

Could push Mids to T75 if we mine that fur hilltop
Or T74 if we chop another forest outside the BFC I think.
4 Workers all in the same spot can get a lot done.

5 Scientists could also get our 1st Great Scientist in 7 turns in one city.
Or maybe a Great Merchant for Currency.

I don't mind a turn of anarchy if it gets us something good and nobody is finishing Stonehenge.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I finally grasping the WB economy. At 50gpt maintenance, SH ideally gives us 115*7/50 = 16t of research.
GW = 20t
Moai = 27t
Mids = 50+ t, and so on...

7 cities can only whip 7 of 10t, putting about 75h*7/10 = 52hpt. Breakeven. Except when we have to complete the wonder ourselves. Plus 3 of 10t unwhipped hammers in times up to 7 wonders available as possible.

Doesn’t work under castes.

Since we can only complete 7 GWs, this scenario may nerf the WB economy by using AIs who won’t/can’t complete GWs.

T81 Oracle Slingshot
10t * -50g = -500g. (t70-80)
7t * 70h = 490g (t63-70)
~115h in SH already

Should we just plan to complete GW in our Spy city, if necessary?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Since WB economy doesn’t work under castes, do we stop using it post-Sushi?

If so, does Kremlin become useless?

 

[LowtherCastle]

What’s the earliest we can fit in Optics in our tech plan?

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we could manage to meet another AI who traded maps, we might find out about the world layout.

Maybe eventually HBR, stable+rax for a sentry-promoted chariot?

 

[LowtherCastle]

.The dun trick is the only way to get T80 Oracle currently since we can't get Priesthood by T65.
.

Are you teching Wtg before Phood?

 

[WastinTime]

79 mids is probably too early. I'd like to see how bad you're beating up Cows. We need to stay on those furs a good part of the time to make our beakers.
I don't see mids as a way to get our failgold for CoL. I'd rather build up a lot and get it no sooner than T81 (or whenever we get CoL/Oracle).

What’s the earliest we can fit in Optics in our tech plan?

after we bulb Biology, probably after corporation.
...and when we can get free compass from the AI.

If so, does Kremlin become useless?

I think so. In a score game, I'd get it before sushi to whip failgold and then 100's of execs, but we only have to get 6.
Also, in score games, I could build Kremlin in 1t. We can't do that, even tho we have stone.
Completing GW isn't a horrible idea. Are there any other spy wonders we'd want?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Okay, I finally grasping the WB economy. At 50gpt maintenance, SH ideally gives us 115*7/50 = 16t of research.
GW = 20t
Moai = 27t
Mids = 50+ t, and so on...

7 cities can only whip 7 of 10t, putting about 75h*7/10 = 52hpt. Breakeven. Except when we have to complete the wonder ourselves. Plus 3 of 10t unwhipped hammers in times up to 7 wonders available as possible.

Doesn’t work under castes.

Since we can only complete 7 GWs, this scenario may nerf the WB economy by using AIs who won’t/can’t complete GWs.

T81 Oracle Slingshot
10t * -50g = -500g. (t70-80)
7t * 70h = 490g (t63-70)
~115h in SH already

Should we just plan to complete GW in our Spy city, if necessary?

This is a really good thought Lowthercastle.

We can use Wastintime's idea to put Granary overflow into The Great Wall in Canal City.
The new Worker from Science City can chop once in the capital, then head over to Canal City and chop an appropriate forest.
Or maybe the other way around.

Canal City should be able to 2 pop whip The Great Wall complete from 100/150 when we want to cash out.

Chops and production from T63 to T70 in Science and Cow city could generate the extra 300 fail gold we need.
Certainly Cow City has enough mojo to put 110 in Stonehenge and then another 140 in The Great Wall.

Whipping Stonehenge in capital only gets an extra 30.

This also let's us build Mids slower so we can put more fail gold into it.

Yes, the Great Wall in Canal might be the path that gets us fast Civil Service

 

[Mitchum]

Completing GW isn't a horrible idea. Are there any other spy wonders we'd want?

From the pre-game discussion:

For Spy, the only Great Wonders that generate GPPs are The Great Wall (Masonry), The Kremlin (Communism) and The Pentagon (Assembly Line).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Optimal on Canal looks like this near as I can tell.
It does not lose out to fastest possible Granary micro in the final total.

Spoiler :

T55 - Whip Workboat, work Clam + coast
T56 - Granary, Clam + coast
T57 - Granary, Clam + Crab
T58 - T59 Granary, 3 seafood
T60 - Whip Granary, Clam + Crab 12/24 Halt Growth
T61 - Lighthouse, Clam + Crab 18/24
T62 - Lighthouse, Clam + Crab 24/24 Resume Growth button
T63 - Lighthouse, 3 seafood (1 of them is not improved) 18/26
T65 - 2pop whip Lighthouse (65/60) 17/24 +6 per turn

Improving that last seafood makes Canal grow too fast and adds a whip anger.
The city works well at +9 per turn working more coastal tiles.
This micro has a lot of constant per turn and not much fail gold

If we want Canal City to contribute to fail gold, 2-pop whipping a Worker after Lighthouse at 29/60 generates a ton of hammers since the city can put 10 per turn into a Worker.
This means no on early Library.
Still, on T69 it could start a Worker at +10 per turn at Size 4 (24/28), and when the Worker is whipped T72 at 29/60, the city will still regrow to Size 3 when it produces Worker. (naturally occurs with 24/24 when building worker)

Canal could whip its library instead of lighthouse and run 2 scientists to create the first GS.

Xposts

 

[Kaitzilla]

Are you teching Wtg before Phood?

Priesthood has to come first.

Even then, we have to use the Dun stone trick to get T80 Oracle.

Early Libraries are just a nice dream.

 

[Mitchum]

Kait, in the test game you uploaded, I see that Cows has quite a few pre-stone hammers in the Mids and SH. Does it make any sense to use 30 of those hammers to build an exploring wb for the NW Passage?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Kait, in the test game you uploaded, I see that Cows has quite a few pre-stone hammers in the Mids and SH. Does it make any sense to use 30 of those hammers to build an exploring wb for the NW Passage?

Our exploration WB is 2E1S of Silver City on T65.

There is a workboat a few turns behind it heading to Whale City.

Both Whale and Silver City can net their own 3rd seafood.