[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices

[WastinTime]

Another problem with giving compass + machinery is it puts Louis 1 tech from Optics (and he has his own whale which hurts our Iron trade)

I vote:
10 techs and rank 4 on the scoreboard, but we can't get there until T152 if we want to give Paper, etc.
See if we can get him to DoW Karl.
If not, we wait for +1 OB and +1 or +2 resource on T175.
Or, we just hope he demands a tech.

I don't really want to pay for Iron for 50 turns. We were gonna trade some resources for Peter's seafood.

 

[Mitchum]

What are the 10 techs we're thinking about giving him (I've seen a few different proposals)? Are we even considering getting his power up or is that a lost cause?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Louis is + 3 shared civic (Hereditary Rule) with multiple civs.
I am now 95% sure he will take bureaucracy civic before we can gift him Liberalism as WT pointed out.

Free Religion for fast iron won't work.

 

[WastinTime]

Problem solved.
If Lou won't DoW Karl, then we simply DoW Karl first.
Then...

Louis will only deny DoW Karl if:
HRE-Power > LouisPower + OurPower! (because atWar(HRE, Us))

 

[WastinTime]

What are the 10 techs we're thinking about giving him (I've seen a few different proposals)?

at least 11 techs with DoW

150 Math, Aes, CodeLaws, Philo, HBR, Metal Casting
151 Music, Civil Service, Construction
152 Calendar, Paper for DoW

If we needed all those 11 just to get rank 4 or if he gets calendar before we can give it to him, then we give Nationalism for DoW.

So no compass and no machinery and no Edu (keeps him away from optics, maces, and GunP)

That should allow us to get iron any time we want (after Astro)

[/QUOTE]

 

[Kaitzilla]

Problem solved.
If Lou won't DoW Karl, then we simply DoW Karl first.
Then...

Louis will only deny DoW Karl if:
HRE-Power > LouisPower + OurPower! (because atWar(HRE, Us))

Oh!

If allies count, then Bismark + Louis > HRE

Yes, 10 techs and 4th place on scoreboard should work then.

Only wild card would be religion penalty ticking up to +3 on T151 or T152, but I'm comfortable with going with your plan now.

Do we still want to double bulb Astro?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Do we really want to upgrade to Galleon and frigates? Can’t we just build galleys and triremes and whip them the turn we get Astro for gallons and iron for frigates? Save the gold?

 

[WastinTime]

Do we really want to upgrade to Galleon and frigates? Can’t we just build galleys and triremes and whip them the turn we get Astro for gallons and iron for frigates? Save the gold?

just 1 galleon upgrade I think (for immediate needs for HRE). We have too much else to whip rt now.

Maybe 1 frigate upgrade by SB. We can't kill Triremes/galleys every other turn with one caravel.
SB will make plenty of Triremes, but that's better than longbows!
Probably keep the caravel and upgrade the Trireme

If allies count, then Bismark + Louis > HRE

allies don't count. It's only our power if we're at war. Bis won't count.

 

[MirrorGuard]

Ya, they both have iron.

Here is a better answer for your 1st question.
I have no idea how the AI values Iron.
Maybe it changes based on relations, or techs known, or population, etc.

Test Game from T115 shows Egypt willing to trade Iron for 58 per turn, or Horse + 5 more resources.
I was able to make the deal with Horse + Fur + Silver + Gems + Whale + Stone

It is probably because I buy iron only after I get steel.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Do we really want to upgrade to Galleon and frigates? Can’t we just build galleys and triremes and whip them the turn we get Astro for gallons and iron for frigates? Save the gold?

If we whip a Sushi Exec. Galleon in Whale City and found Sushi on T157 due to double Astro Bulb T151, that frees up Western Caravel and the Peter Galley for the Holy Roman Empire attack.

I want to upgrade Galley near Clam City T151 for 110 with city capture gold.
Then upgrade our Trireme (140), Caravel near Profit City (110), and Peter Galley (110)
These 4 upgrades will cost 470, but will give us naval options to press a war on 2 fronts.

I'm thinking DOW Charlemagne on T151 if France is still Cautious with him (not +4 shared civic yet), and then send in the Frigate to start bombarding his island city on T153.
A bit dangerous to DOW Charlie on T150. Our Great Scientist over there might get murdered by a wandering charlie unit in the Arab lands.

If we don't get Iron T152 because France goes to -3 religion, then we cancel the frigate upgrade plans and the galleon whip.
The Charlie island invasion will need the Catapult to bombard down defenses instead.

Yes, I know it is painful to spend gold on our military.
We will have to burn cities and pillage to get the money back.

 

[Kaitzilla]

at least 11 techs with DoW

150 Math, Aes, CodeLaws, Philo, HBR, Metal Casting
151 Music, Civil Service, Construction
152 Calendar, Paper for DoW

If we needed all those 11 just to get rank 4 or if he gets calendar before we can give it to him, then we give Nationalism for DoW.

So no compass and no machinery and no Edu (keeps him away from optics, maces, and GunP)

That should allow us to get iron any time we want (after Astro)

Math = 12
Aes = 12
Code = 12
Philo = 18
HBR = 12
Metal Casting = 12
Music = 18
Civil = 18
Construction = 12
Calender = 12

These 10 techs are 138 points and would get France up to 768.

Paper is 18


As for resources to trade with Peter and the new world, I've got:
Peter - Gems, Fur, Whale, Marble, Stone for Sushi resources
Saladin - Fur for Gold, Silver for Silk
France - Horse, Silver, Fur (-1 happy since it leave none for us), Cow (-1 health), Sheep (-1 health), Wine (-1 happy since it leaves none for us)
All 6 resources for Iron

Only Whale City and Silver City have +1 excess health, so trading away Cow and Sheep won't hurt too bad after the Forge whips.
We can trade Bismark one of our Clams for Wine if we need more happiness, or complete a Fur camp in our capital for more happiness.
Any time we want the Iron trade to stop, we can pillage our cow in Cow City.

 

[Kaitzilla]

allies don't count. It's only our power if we're at war. Bis won't count.

Test Game indicates our being at war causes a weak AI to be willing to DOW too. Great work

 

[Kaitzilla]

Just to make sure everyone understand the limits of Frigates, they take off -8% against whatever a chariot would face.
So a 60% culture city with a castle would go to 92% defense against Chariot and 55% defense against Musket after 1 bombard.

A 60% culture city with no castle would be bombarded down to 52% after 1 bombard

So Walls boost defenses for 40% cities against Frigate bombardment a tiny bit.
Castles boost defenses against Frigate bombardment a lot.

Frigates also very mobile against coastal cities and rock against naval units.
They can bombard and blockade on the same turn if they have enough movement I think.


To wipe out the world, I'd like to have 3 or 4 Frigates.
Those castles take 4 turns for a trio to blow down.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One problem we will run into starting or warriors so early is the other AIs resettling the barren land.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If we are unwilling to switch to Nationalism and draft Whale City every turn, or spend gold on navy, or whip an army of Cuirassiers, Cannons, and Airships, perhaps we should just go for U.N. victory?

There are a lot of cities to conquer, and a knockdown fight every time we want to produce military units will burn us out.

We can pursue UN with a world war against Charlie
Peter can be our UN opponent.
Everyone can love our shared war and our resources, and hate Peter who they meet later and is a heathen religion.
Have our runt army get gold where it can.

If we go UN, we can just ignore iron, fast astronomy, military, etc.
Keep the AI backwards as dirt or advance them. Either way not a big deal.
Have a nice easy builder game.

 

[Mitchum]

Yes, I asked the question a day or two ago whether or not we're sure that Conquest is the fastest VC. I'm not 100% sure but it's obvious that not having metal and having to jump through hoops to get it sure makes Conquest a lot harder.

One key benefit of Conquest is city capture gold and keeping our slider pegged at 100%. However, it seems like actually achieving Conquest is our critical path right now, not research or building the necessary infrastructure.

 

[MirrorGuard]

I know it is painful to spend gold on our military.

Less upgrade= more whip anger. I'm even thinking about whipping some markets in cities other than clams for +3 happiness, merchant slots and more gold when the empire is not on 100% slider.

If we manage to get iron early enough, I'd recommend getting 1 or more privateer against AIs we are not at war with.

 

[WastinTime]

limits of Frigates, they take off -8% against whatever a chariot would face.

I assume you tested this because I was guessing that since you need GunPowder before Chem, Frigates are Gunpowder based and should ignore walls. No?

 

[WastinTime]

Conquest is sounding like a lot of work and a lot of time. Especially killing Peter.
And we don't have all that much time left. So let's think about UN, and decide now.
We never really revisited it after finding out all the AI (which was just this turn, 150.)

Is it 67% or 75%? Religious is 75, so I think it's only 67.

Does Peter have to be our opponent? or could we use privateers to starve him down?
Or maybe Bis takes all the HRE land and becomes opponent.

We keep Karl alive in Nuremburg. It should take the AI forever to figure out how to conquer that city.
Build up a good long war. There's no vassals, right?

Would we convert the other 3 to our religion? or would we adopt FreeReligion until the final turn of the game-- after calling for the diplo vote, IIRC, they all vote based on their attitude with you before you switch religion that turn. Cus we have to be in our religion as a game rule.

We haven't caused any -4 traded with WE, so we should be able to get all 4 AI to love us and then we don't care if it's Peter or not as opponent.

We'd get to keep gold and silk til the end. A couple extra seafood too.

I'm liking it. We left the UN option open. Let's go for it. It's only a little harder to build than Eiffel.

 

[WastinTime]

Maybe getting 50+ gold every few turns for tech trade is as good as conquer gold.
We can still pillage HRE, raze some cities. Maybe there will be an opportunity to dogpile another AI.