I think we changed the plan to:
T172 (do nothing)
T175 Econ for caste + gold + map.
[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Home Slices
- Thread starter AlanH
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T172 (do nothing)
T175 Econ for caste + gold + map.
And remember, we're not in slavery T176 
Mitchum
Deity
I think MG is planning to stay in Slavery until T176, whip observatories and then switch civics.And remember, we're not in slavery T176
So we have to decide whether to switch on T174 or T176.
It's not worth it for whipping -- at most-- 4 observatories. And I didn't study if even those are worth it (like I showed Science should not whip)
Maybe we'll here from LC and Kait today. I often get convinced to change my mind, but rt now. I'm for 174 anarchy.
Maybe we'll here from LC and Kait today. I often get convinced to change my mind, but rt now. I'm for 174 anarchy.
Here's another thing to consider
OrgRel is giving us only about +16 hpt empire wide.
Switching, we get:
+6 (less upkeep) +3-5
caste workshop and +50:science (FreeReligion)
OrgRel is giving us only about +16 hpt empire wide.
Switching, we get:
+6 (less upkeep) +3-5
caste workshop and +50:science (FreeReligion)Mitchum
Deity
Whipping 4 pops into an observatory sounds steep. You'd have to do the payoff calculation of -4 pops and having the Observatory now vs. +4 pops and having the Observatory in 10?? turns.
EDIT: Not to mention the +1
if that comes into play.
EDIT: Not to mention the +1
if that comes into play.
observ is only 150 unlike university 200. So closer to 3 pop, but I don't think they're worth it to lose the scientists for 10 turns regrowing. And whatever savings we get from early anarchy. We will NEVER be below 100% research after that cus we can always run merchants/build wealth as needed. I regret doing the market in Science in hindsight.
Mitchum
Deity
I'm also firmly in the T174 revolt camp at this time.
MirrorGuard
Prince
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Actually I want to work a few more merchants in clams to balance the UN and research. We will have some flexibility to choose from workshops or merchants. That's when the date of massmedia matters.
My plan is to whip 6 obs at T176. Org-religion will save 150*1/6*6=150h
case1: canal
-we lost 4 pop. Assume that all lost pops are scientists. We are losing 4, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1=13 scientists=78 base beaker(<actually loss)
+we get 36 base commerce now. Obs will provide 36*1/4=9 beaker per turn.(<actual gain, cancel out with the estimation above)
+Org-religion will provide 150*1/6=25 base hammer. That will save a citizen from working a tundra mine for 8T. He can have better job to do...8*6=48 base beaker(note that working on a mine is sub-optimal, it causes more losses than nominal value)
slow build
=work 2 mines 1 engineer+city=9 base h=11h, 14T to build obs
difference=(14*9)-(78-48) =96b....
case 2: silver
=6base hammer, 7hammer in total, 21T+ to complete obs
-lost pops are all merchants, using the assumption above. But merchants have 100% bonus>scientists, Let's say we lose 100 base commerce
+obs provides 1/4*21=5 beaker per turn
+Org-relgion provides 25 base h, now the citizen on fur can working as merchant, +2c for 25T=50c
difference=5*21-(100-50)=55c
I might have to rebuild the Test Game to say for sure.
Only Science City is easy to solve on paper.
Getting our teching done as fast as possible is a real headache to contemplate.
A lot of buildings must get done too.
Doh!Once we are in free religion, +2will disappear?
At least the Temple in the capital did some work.
Whipping from Size 10 to Size 6 takes a fair amount of
to grow back to Size 10.It is (32-15) + (34-16) + (36-17) + (38-18) = 74
With Caste as an option, that food could have worked 37 Scientists I think if it had been used to maintain them instead of regrow the city.
The instant +25%
of an Observatory does benefit trade routes the most since they are always present.A Harbor would give four +4
trade routes once we have Astronomy.I don't think there are any easy answers, only calculating!
We can only try our best for each city individually and make sure they will get everything built by the end of the game.
Working a silver mine is not bad, but working a regular tundra mine for a long time is not good.
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MirrorGuard
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But in real life, 2 scientists are forced onto tundra mine for 14T if we still want the observatory.
Here's the big difference.
(example assumes Astronomy = T0)
Option1 : anarchy T-1 (i.e. 1t before Astro):
On T+2, we have ~1800 in Physics
Option 2: anarchy T+1 (or 1t after astro so we can whip observatories):
On T+2, we have 900 :science in Physics and +400 more in the bank from an extra turn of 0%.
How do you recover that difference? It's not that easy to convert the extra gold back into at a very good rate. Building research instead of build wealth is 1:1. It would be different if we were ever going to run out of money, but we are not. So that extra wealth doesn't get the benefit of saying "I can make the research slider go up". It can't. We're maxed out for the rest of the game at 100%.
If you're talking about a 28 turn race to MassMedia, I'd bet on Option 1 getting there first. Same for a 48 turn race to the end.
(example assumes Astronomy = T0)
Option1 : anarchy T-1 (i.e. 1t before Astro):
On T+2, we have ~1800
in PhysicsOption 2: anarchy T+1 (or 1t after astro so we can whip observatories):
On T+2, we have 900 :science in Physics and +400
more in the bank from an extra turn of 0%.How do you recover that difference? It's not that easy to convert the extra gold back into
at a very good rate. Building research instead of build wealth is 1:1. It would be different if we were ever going to run out of money, but we are not. So that extra wealth doesn't get the benefit of saying "I can make the research slider go up". It can't. We're maxed out for the rest of the game at 100%.If you're talking about a 28 turn race to MassMedia, I'd bet on Option 1 getting there first. Same for a 48 turn race to the end.
Now I'm wondering if you're right. I opposed this gamble, but (see argument above)I guess with Peter, we will try to get 1
Bit of a gamble, but it is off to the races once we get Astronomy.
If it works, we are 900
ahead in the race (or 800 or whatever our rate is rt now)If we fail, we can think of it as being out 400
The 800-900 science is probably lost in Communism, but again, it's really just less gold build up.
So, we should MM the cities to get a little more research at 0% and get Steel closer to being done.
For example, to slow the approach of Steel, I put the latest citizen on a bad tile...
Science:
Forest. that should be scientist.
Cows:
is working an unimproved tile I think. Should now be scientist too.
etc. In other words, try to get a lot more scientists 172 without completing Steel. Could even run 10% research.
We can finish Steel with 100% research on T173 if Peter is at Astro(2)
For example, to slow the approach of Steel, I put the latest citizen on a bad tile...
Science:
Forest. that should be scientist.
Cows:
is working an unimproved tile I think. Should now be scientist too.
etc. In other words, try to get a lot more scientists 172 without completing Steel. Could even run 10% research.
We can finish Steel with 100% research on T173 if Peter is at Astro(2)
Mitchum
Deity
That sounds risky. Any number of things could make him not finish in 2 turns...
LowtherCastle
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If you’re assuming merchants to keep us at 100% then doesn’t the 500g translate to more sci and fewer merch thus making up some portion of those beakers? Not including the obs 25%.Here's the big difference.
(example assumes Astronomy = T0)
Option1 : anarchy T-1 (i.e. 1t before Astro):
On T+2, we have ~1800
Option 2: anarchy T+1 (or 1t after astro so we can whip observatories):
On T+2, we have 900 :science in Physics and +400
How do you recover that difference? It's not that easy to convert the extra gold back into
If you're talking about a 28 turn race to MassMedia, I'd bet on Option 1 getting there first. Same for a 48 turn race to the end.
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LowtherCastle
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It seems to me the calculation has to be carried out to the happiness cap because while whipped cities are catching up the 3-4 pop, the unwhipped cities are growing too.
sure, it will likely make up some, but that will be a loooong time from now since we have so much cash. And if the AI spreads foreign corps for us, then we'll have a harder time converting that gold back.
that as my initial thought, but I can see the extra 900 meaning we win 1 turn sooner. And the extra cash, maybe not, or not as likely.
But I would compromise and do something in the middle. Either the 'get steel to 1
left on 173" part and then 0% on 173 or maybe just running 50% research? But if we're voting, I'm going with Kaitzilla's first instinct... 100% research on T173.LowtherCastle
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The observatories only need to be applied to 3600base-b to add 900b. Ignoring the 500g.sure, it will likely make up some, but that will be a loooong time from now since we have so much cash. And if the AI spreads foreign corps for us, then we'll have a harder time converting that gold back.
that as my initial thought, but I can see the extra 900 meaning we win 1 turn sooner. And the extra cash, maybe not, or not as likely.
But I would compromise and do something in the middle. Either the 'get steel to 1
I'm not saying we don't build observatories. Just can't whip them. I suggested putting maxOF into em, for example, in Canal, since there is no rush to finish westpoint. But just slow-build the rest of it.
Cows can probably do the same instead of putting OF into IronWorks.
Profit too. It doesn't need the cathedral soon especially with Sankore offline.
