[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Phoenix Rising

[Fippy]

Busy days are fine, but afk would be nice (we saw you online and thought you will be here quicker).
I had hoped for some immediate turns testing, can see none thou. Scout boats feedback.
I also have my schedules, now i started something new, will see you tomorrow.

 

[lymond]

Ha..sorry...I pop in sometimes on my phone real quick so did not think much of it at that time. I did not know who was online at the time. If I'm ready I post something immediately.

Nitey

Yall don't have to always wait for me. I'll usually be around mid to late afternoon, but the fact is 3 of the team can start earlier than me and that is fine.

I have this weird deal where my game crashes when I move from real game to test game, but not the other way.
It's not the machine for sure. May be window mode. I think I recall this happening before. Or the Steam version I'm on. No big deal really unless I''m playing.

 

[Tonny]

I'll try some tests with earlier settlement for G.
My had G settled t36.
Will be afk too now to get some tests going, otherwise no time.

Once we have this part figured out, things will get rolling!
Probably, this is the most important part of this game.

Nitey all

 

[Gumbolt]

Old machine? Or a bug in the software?

I have civ on full screen mode and use control alt and delete.

Albeit not really played any civ beyond advising on this game this week.

 

[Tonny]

did a test with settling G on turn 33
Masonry teched turn 48

 

[Fippy]

Appreciate your test Tonny.
Overall we should look at solid gains, settling earlier must mean sooner monument or it's contra-productive (i only highlight that so we can lay out basics).
Otherwise we have less progress in G cos while it's bigger now, without additional resis growth advances will stall.
Also less scouting done, i know we are all keen on finding stuff like stone or AIs.
So far our little "paradise" sits NW, logic would tell me it cannot be wrong if we scout more there.

 

[Fippy]

Have another suggestion with G settled as soon as possible (when boat can be used).
Priority on early G monument, T hangs behind a bit but can whip LH (monument in T less important for 1 seafood). LH whip also a suggestion after chop in G (ignored furs).

 

[Gumbolt]

I am here.

My assumption would of been settling city when worboat arrives. The rest is balance the difference between resources. Getting high value commerce resources should offset delayed irrigated plains tiles. Getting border pops sooner will add to economy greatly.

Exploration could be useful if we get discounts on techs. I wonder how much techs the Ai here might of been gifted with.

If the Ai are as backward as we expect then conquest could be easiest way to win map.

I am not sure what main advantage that we expect delaying our best city to achieve?

We could get a lot of fail gold from national wonders here. See if we have stone. My guess would be no. I guess this is the main advantage of scouting if new city sites are found.

 

[Tonny]

All testing that I'm doing is to prove and disprove moves that we should make. I'm not expecting that my tests will lead to going that way. More information is always good.
Had a look at your new test. Settling at turn 27 is even better!
I still like to debate T. It's monument vs wb. You played wb for scouting. Is it possible to go for monument first to get T growing faster as well? I know it will delay scouting for ai, but otoh we'll get more commerce sooner from the coastal tiles. And we still have a lot to tech (eg Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Priesthood, etc...)

I'm here too

homes slices caught up with us

I don't expect the AI to be very advanced, so no discounts on techs.
Yup, traderoutes... wb in T it is then!

I trust My's tests that settling G at turn 27 will give the best result. Good techrate, worker timing and wb's to explore.

T plan looks fine by me, that's a green

I like V going for Monument first, then wb, lh etc

How's V worker used? Fur and then up, or something else?

I'm ok with settling G later, giving V and T the chance to grow and build the necessary stuff faster
AND scouting!

To quote lymond...

Scouting is very important to me as yall know, but not sure a few turns delay on scouting > kick-starting development of a great city
that, to me, is the question

I think we then all agree on delaying G

I believe that My delayed G until turn 36. Then we will have 2 scoutboats roaming the map

 

[Fippy]

I mostly went wb in T cos we already have hammers in it, and we need commerce worked so we can settle G.
Monument sooner requires no commerce ph worked, difficult to fit in everything.

We should not forget about traderoutes, esp with GLH, no AIs found no foreign routes.
Without barbs they will always stay open.

If we settle G early (as boat arrives), delaying another scout boat gets my strong veto.

T plan

Spoiler :

Yep V monument before (new) scoutboat, then boat for own seafood.

Scoutboat could be better than settling G earlier for monument, it's our dilema here Gumbo.
My earlier tests went for scoutboat and later settle, monument done with chop instead.
I always thought we might put too much importance on G and that monument.

Recap, if we are content with settling G later we could use our boat now for moving NW, and quickly work ph for scoutboat 2 from T.
We are only not doing that for city 4, as it's costs force us into working more commerce and improving it's seafood so settling early makes sense.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yes the debate is when is best moment for workboat? Maybe when BW is in and we can whip? An early discovery of land with strong resources would lead us towards a galley. Hmmm. We can likely scout most of map by workboat.

So foreign trade routes out weigh an early monument. It takes 3% a turn to get full bonus on foreign traderoutes? So 19-26 turns before we get to the full bonus? We would still need open borders before we get any trade route bonus? Albeit you get peace bonus on trade routes so maybe you don't need foreign trade routes for that.

So an early workboat with GLh could long term easily out weigh monument?

How quickly would we get GLH. Also assumes we find an AI.

Pends also where you expect to find teh AI. From the far west or from the land mass below middle of our land. If you have to get a workboat to far west that is a long way.

Am i thinking for trade routes you have to find ai and them you. Other problem is will they have sailing!


If your advice is to delay G then I would back that. Your game knowledge is better than mine. Very hard to prove what will happen scouting wise here. How long would G be delayed for based on testing?

Okay let's go scouting then.

It's hard to quantify the bonus as all Ai on test game are locked in mountain. You get 100% bonus for foreign trade routes. Plus up to 150% bonus for peace.So you need 34 turns of peace to get 33c from trade routes. I think the counter starts before you have OB.

If were looking at 12 trade routes. That could be worth 12C a turn with GLH assuming they have 3 coastal cities. I doubt they would have 3 cities too early here.

Next question is time gap between this and a further workboat. Guess with G we could have bonus of 6-7C a turn. Less cost of settling city.

It's very hard to test scouting. None of the saves uploaded will show you what we might of gained. Just what the difference in time for further workboat might be.

 

[lymond]

Yo! Here ye!

I'm fine with your plan, My. Not sure exactly when G is settled, but I really have no more input on the matter. At least we gave it more thought and testing and potentially found a better option than what was first discussed. All for the scout wb.

Homies have skyrocketed to a convincing lead



regular play? what is this strange concept?

I have total faith in your micro. I remember testing thinking that I'd have to do it all over again to get each detail right.

green to commence this regular play thing

I can imagine

I'd been thinking about the naming thing..and don't forget the boats

Workers can be us

SB has pottery

I'm just joking about the score, Gumbo...chill bean

Funny..I like regular names for pets like George and Fred..ha

end that turn

You have a pet Chicken

Wuflie..is that Woflgang

"Wolfie just's fine, honey!"

I'm not sure how to answer on binary. Stonehenge could be some turns away from every being completed. I think we just have to stick with the plan on teching for now

Right now we're at the mercy of your meticulous micro...I'm just checking to make sure nothing is off, but everything looks good so far

proceed...

not an uncommon phonetic typo (which most of mine are)...I pronounce the two words the same

I'm fine you playing until Bibs grows

with castles

So is it better not to have T grow in 2?

 

[Fippy]

We just should decide if going scouting first or seafood for G, then we can delay any G decisions until Sailing was reached (we would never settle G without sailing or a boat), and use our other cities for hammers as fit.
I still like furs improved now for V (before worker moves towards G), any commerce helps and we have no other great tiles in V.

I have sailing on T32 with cities working their better tiles first (plains farm until size 3 for V, ph for T for boat and monument).

Okay, just testing some details for playing on.

After so much testing, we will need time for getting used to regular play
Immediate micro: Bib works wine until Rice finished (still grows same turn).
T works another sea tile after this turn, gets to 18h and can then 3t scoutboat.
Worker at V improves furs after farm. I think there are no settlers to move for now, besides one getting to G spot.
Boat in V moves NW, T boat will cover south.

Playing on, sorry for being slow in advance, really quiet the change from test games.

Next turn uploaded.
(i will rename our cities actually now, along with units. Workers by number are fine, or something else?)
I think us as workers will be confusing, will try pet names

Yup he builds a shiver plains cottage.
But it's interesting, rather advanced tech with wheel and pottery beeline i guess.

Good on end turn?

Next uploaded.

I got that from Terminator 2
Why is Wulfie barking (when Arni tricks him with the dog name)

On a more serious note, i wonder how we should handle binary research.
I doubt SH gets built early, but if so we might collect more gold than needed.
Not quite sure on that, maybe turn on sailing when we have 31g already.

Something for this turn?
Hmm i guess the chance of meeting an AI with sailing is much higher than SH completed.
Okay corrected Gumbo.

No changes at all this turn, still want an upload?

Uploaded, new scoutboat now ready to move w then sw.
Turning on slider now is reasonable, Bib works wine again (better c than hammer until horsies).

New post

 

[Tonny]

Let's give V and T a chance to do their stuff indeed. Scouting gets my vote.
We've done enough testing for now imo.

setlling G wil cost us 7-8g at the go and gains 4 commerce.
Only when working the silvermine it will repay itself

I'd say proceed to turn 22

and we take the lead again

let's give the worker pet names

Comparing scores is just for fun . We don't know what they're doing anyway

I have some pet names... we have 3 dogs at home (Joepie, Bobby and Daisy), a cat (Pukkie aka Spooky Poe) and a chicken (Blondie)

Good to go



it has been tested for SH (wonderdates strategy articles) fastest on immortal goes around turn 32, on average around turn 43.
I don't expect SH to be finished before Sailing

This turn is ready to be finished

I have no need to see the save. Proceed My

Toku would indeed be a challenge. Maybe NZ has put all the protective leaders here on a hill

 

[Gumbolt]

I think let's avoid comparing scores here. We will play our own game.

Will any Ai have sailing? Is the rule not to start a tech till we can complete it? 2120bc would be early for stonehenge given the map. Unless we find a religious freak. Never underestimate the map maker. If we find Toku good luck getting open borders.

At this stage I trust your micro. Tiles to work look pretty obvious.

Only upload if something interesting happens. Turn by turn at this stage is OTT.

Earlier we get border pops sooner we can work more tiles?

What is more important commerce or hammers and grabbing land tiles? We have no issues with happiness here.

Costs won't be huge. See post 31? You can see from your test saves the costs.

I think he means he is actually heading out. Albeit I don't know what lockdown conditions are near him.

So what are we most in need of now? If we settle new city commerce will be tight. We will soon have a furs tile we could run for 4-5 commerce.

Even if we speeded up sailing we would finish workboat? So maybe hammers are better.

Maybe if were tired we pause for tonight. This is not a big game changing decision but important to get micro right. Snowball effect.

 

[Fippy]

Fair on sea tile for 2t in T, 2+28h for monument.
Cannot go wrong with a bit more commerce and delay monument by 1t?
Another option would be 2t faster monument with 2h tile to jump on 30h.
Depends on what we want more, i guess we should improve our cities as best possible if we are not rushing G.
T sowy

In detail i mean, keep T on ph and then use 2h tile for 1t later, which also brings 28h to 30.
Either commerce or faster monument, my feeling says monument.
We are not gaining food by using sea now, faster growth means faster food negative tiles.

1t later sailing is maybe not worth sacrificing any progress in our cities, with being worth 3 beakers.

Yup certainly not 21 anymore.

 

[lymond]

V or T?

T working coast for 2t growth and more commerce seems logical. We can adjust new citizen as needed for faster monument

I'm thinking on the maths here...assuming T grows onto 2H in 3 t.

3X4=12+6=18+6=24+6=30

So faster Monument vs. faster growth to Size 3 and more commerce now?

How does 1t with the 2H tile at size 3 work out

3X4=12 + 6 = 18 + 4=22 + 4=26 + 4 = 30

I see the math here..but we could finish monument in 6t

Monument would be 8 turns assuming coast now

So we've saved 1t on monument at expense of 6C ...just stating that...so does that work with the overall plan. Border pop needs to match a WB too, so will one be ready?

3X1=3 + 6 =9 + 6=15 +6=21 + 6=27 + ?=complete

that's 8 turns

(you can just WB in the extra citizen and check the cost...like 1g at most?)

I'm not sure what is wrong with what I'm doing. I'm just doing the math for myself...there is nothing wrong with it. It's clear what we are giving up or gaining one way or another. The question is what best fits the plan and you are best for answering that. I would not discourage me from trying to work things out...wrong or not..that is counterproductive

I'm out for the night. Nights to all. Green on continuing to Sailing with what is decided.

 

[Tonny]

agree to grow T in 2t, times nicely with monument build
also agree to use the 2h to finish monument earlier, means earlier clam2.
My, you did the micro with commerce. if losing 6c is fair to get monument 2 turns earlier. Go ahead!
monument in 6 turns: lost 12c compared to 8 turns
7 turns: lost 6c compared to 8 turns
9 turns: gained 6c compared to 8 turns

The question is if the tested micro allows for such changes.
earlier border pop means a plains forest tile to work earlier, clam 3t earlier (=9f) (this accounts for 6t monument compared to 9t monument)

There's a flaw in your math lymo. we'll only be working coast for 2t until growth (if choosing this)
2x1+7x4=30 (9 turns), or 2x1+5x6 (7 turns), or 2x1+7x4 (8 turns), or 3x4+3x6 (6 turns), or 2x1+1x4+4x6 (7 turns)

1 citizen adds 0,17g to the costs of this city for now

more options on T micro. 6x4+1x6 (7 turns)

My, you've tested it already. I trust your math on this one

yep, you're right gumbolt, post 31.

Can we get all the necessary posts with the costs, builds and tech needed (lymond mentioned this) linked in one of the first posts?

My, looks good and I may assume that won't hinder V's development?

Yup, this micro is getting into extreme proportions. It's only about getting +1 or -1 here and there.
I trust your decisions on this matter My

Agree on early development here. It's a thin line on which we are balancing right now.
Better sleep on it for now and start fresh again tomorrow.
Nitey
almost 40 here

 

[Gumbolt]

That looks like a plan to use the fur.Might speed up sailing by 1 turn? I am not too worried about growth as we do have some good tiles to grow onto here.

SB has pottery.

I see no point using coast for 1f2C if we can have 4C1H. 2f4c vs 8c2H.

I agree 1 turn difference in sailing is not going to change any build plans here?

Yep I think get some sleep. 11-12pm is quite late. Were no longer 21 anymore. (No idea about Tonny!) Sleep well and bring fresh heads tomorrow.

This is a good distraction from the outside world. One of the advantages to playing games right now. Night all I have chores and bed calling.

 

[Fippy]

Issue was resolved and i edited large parts of my last post out.
While here i tested, and we could get the desired sailing date + 7t monument in T with a minor change (if all works out like that when playing for real? hopefully).
What minor change, sea tile in V at size 3 over plains farm, on test this gives us sailing with the exact amount of beakers needed (same as with Myst before).

Save added.
Fine print, everything else in this test has been ignored (wrong build in V etc).
V did grow on plains farm until size 2, and uses full commerce for 2t.
T can switch to 2h hill for 1t after sailing was reached.