Sgotm18

[Gumbolt]

I suspect most of the people arguing deity level are those that already play at that level. I suspect many teams outside the top 3 may not have players suited to that level. A number of our team this game had only just reached emp level.

It's a tough call.

I suspect the galleon chaining was intended this game. Perhaps intended to speed up the game?

If you intend to raise the game level again least ensure each team has at least one player comfortable at deity.

 

[kcd_swede]

There is a lot of discussion about sgotm17, and wondering about what I intended and didn't intend. to end some of the speculation, I will tell you that I intended galleys to be insufficient to break out quickly, and wanted you to know or suspect that from the get-go. I wanted it to be possible but require a fair amount of culture effort to break out with just galleys. Honestly, I expected culture bridge to be the fastest... but you guys do a lot more testing than I can. You'd have to explore a bit to know culture bridge was posible, or take a risk there, too. The barbs had to be tough enough in my thoughts to make them a barrier at least equal to that of getting to astro. Might have gone overboard there... but evil is as evil does.

Teleporting... I knew teleporting was going to be viable. I thought about making it not viable, (requiring paras)... but figured by the time you got to England/Russia the game would pretty much be already won and you'd just be bored waiting for Flight while the AI were still in the medeival times. That, or it took you so long that paras wouldn't slow you down anyhow.

Boat chains I did not think would be so useful as the sea distances were not great (esp with railroads). Were they, really?

The only thing I was really suprised with was how easily many teams cut through and manipulated the AI as if they were nothing. That's why I wondered if there was an overwhelming desire to move up a notch to deity (which apparently there isn't).

Its good to know what you all liked and didn't like about the map, though, so I can avoid repeating things that were no fun or seemed unfair to too many players.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The only thing I was really suprised with was how easily many teams cut through and manipulated the AI as if they were nothing.

By semi-isolating Churchill and Peter, you slowed AI tech pace. Plus, by having them the farthest away, you created weaker targets for our end-game. Contrast what Neilmeister did in SG16 with England. By the time we got to her, she was a behemoth.

 

[kcd_swede]

By semi-isolating Churchill and Peter, you slowed AI tech pace. Plus, by having them the farthest away, you created weaker targets for our end-game. Contrast what Neilmeister did in SG16 with England. By the time we got to her, she was a behemoth.

Understood.

 

[shulec]

I suspect most of the people arguing deity level are those that already play at that level. I suspect many teams outside the top 3 may not have players suited to that level. A number of our team this game had only just reached emp level.

This is an interesting point and if it is a true representation of player level across the SGOTM, then I agree, a deity game would not be wise.

I personally would love to see a deity game. I would not want to see a nerfed game with watered down deity settings, because, then it wouldn't really be at deity level.

It would be an interesting deity SGOTM if there were two tiers of awards: the typical laurels and then a secondary ranking for the teams that lose or retire and choose to replay the game trying for victory with map knowledge.

The biggest problem would be loss of player interest on a replay.

Just a thought.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone on Unusual Suspects is a deity level player. I certainly am not.

 

[Gumbolt]

Now what KCD should of done last map.

The jail. Player stuck in centre of map with 4 hammer and anvil type barb double cities blocking our way. Crucially with one quarter blocked by rifle barb units and perhaps a deity AI. Conquest game. He could of perhaps have left one Ai in the centre with an always peace rule? Hmmm.

 

[pepe26]

The only thing I was really suprised with was how easily many teams cut through and manipulated the AI as if they were nothing.

What do you mean by this? I don't get it.

 

[Seraiel]

He means that the AIs, who're supposed to be good antagonists, didn't show any opposition, as the players were absolutely superior.

I still remember WastinTime's words that really made me get better, he said "AI is pathetic, you're human" and later "you have to let the AIs work for you" . From that I learned, that when an AI founds a city, it's normally good, because it saved me a Settler. If AI improves it's land, it's good, because I'll need less Workers to do that myself a.s.o.

 

[pigswill]

In terms of difficulty you can't please everyone. Top teams (regular award winners) will prefer deity, also-rans (such as myself) would prefer not deity. Whatever you do the stronger teams will continue to win the awards.
You could perhaps borrow from gotm and have immortal and immortal plus (handicaps to be decided) saves for the same map if the stronger teams want more of a challenge.

 

[Fippy]

I do not even understand why we discuss Deity..
in return kcd would have to make our land very good, and also test and test and test that no AI gets too strong.

Or even "super" teams could fail depending on victory conditions, are you guys thinking of some weird HoF stuff, Marathon kind of pseudo-deity?
Regular Deity maps can be very hard, or at least so unpredictable that you are never sure how they turn out..

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Top teams (regular award winners) will prefer deity, also-rans (such as myself) would prefer not deity.

Actually, some of the regular award winners have argued strongly against deity. I'm not sure skill level has much to do with difficulty level preferences. I am happy to play games that are harder than my skill level, in order to learn.

I think the people arguing against deity are doing it not because of skill level, but because it can be very random and unbalanced.

Whatever you do the stronger teams will continue to win the awards.

I'm fairly certain the question wasn't asked in order to handicap the better teams.

 

[pepe26]

Deity is way more beatable with this kinda format than playing through a game quickly in a couple of hours... human dicisions become much better when discussed and analysed thoroughly. From what I've picked up SGOTM used to be a Deity domain.
Still, I'm fine with Immortal but don't be too scared of Deity...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Teleporting can be prevented by making a separate land mass. So it appears that teleporting was intentionally featured in this SG. With all the teleporting we did in SG15, I would think the mapmaker was aware of this mechanic, but it could have been accidental.

More specifically, the different landmasses cuts the utility of *where* teleported units wind up. However, that opens the possibility of one simply using naval units. It's surprisingly difficult to prevent either simple naval access or teleporting to reach a destination, though possible.

I personally have a different reason for not wanting diety. It forces you to play a very constrained strategy to win. What I really like about SG games is the breadth of strategy possibilities and variations between teams.

I think that depends on the map. It would be silly to think the mapmakers would just roll a random fractal or pangaea on deity and post that up as SGOTM 18 .

That said, overall I'm on the same page as you here. The challenge in SGOTM isn't really beating the AI, but rather finding a way to outperform the other teams. That wouldn't be easy to accomplish even on settler. IMO mapmaker should just pick whatever difficulty/layout they feel best fits their goals. Deity maintenance/tech costs would make a game play differently from a noble start, and maybe they could use that. I don't know. That would be the real reason though, not a challenge from AI but rather to make a map that plays differently in some way.

 

[TalladegaKnight]

How about we model professional sports teams draft a little? Come up with 9 bonus prizea and in reverse order of finish a team can pick a prize. It could be an additional starting tech, additional unit, bonus tile, etc. Nothing too overpowering but a way to keep the competition fresh.

Wooden spoons team of course gets to pick 1st.

 

[Doshin]

The Oracle is the standard example of capricious Deity RNG. In some games it goes at 2500 BC, others at 1500 BC. Barbs would be a problem too, because every once in a while, during that initial wave of attacks, a barb Archer sneaks up on you unannounced, attacks at low odds, and... BAM. There goes your second city, lost to a 9.9% sucker punch, with no chance to reload, generate another start, or remain competitive.

How about we model professional sports teams draft a little? Come up with 9 bonus prizea and in reverse order of finish a team can pick a prize. It could be an additional starting tech, additional unit, bonus tile, etc. Nothing too overpowering but a way to keep the competition fresh.

Wooden spoons team of course gets to pick 1st.

Or a free, unloved wonder. Chichen Itza/Broadway/Statue of Zeus/Angkor Wat etc.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Barbs would be a problem too, because every once in a while, during that initial wave of attacks, a barb Archer sneaks up on you unannounced, attacks at low odds, and... BAM. There goes your second city, lost to a 9.9% sucker punch, with no chance to reload, generate another start, or remain competitive.

Barbs, huts, and events are not required settings for a map maker however. If one wants to push deity maintenance and high difficulty onto teams without painful early RNG, they can disable them.

Oracle reliance would indeed be more dicey...but I'm not sure what could really be done about it. Even if AIs that prioritize it are cooked into the game, there's a chance that a team will get it, creating incentive for all teams to pursue it, to varying potential outcomes. It is because of issues like this that deity seems a questionable choice, although I suppose one could just start a few AI off with priesthood and insta-ruin oracle chances or something weird .

Deity difficulty could be done but its nature mean that the map would have to be set up carefully else the competition would be needlessly influenced by chance.

 

[kcd_swede]

RE: above

I am already convinced that I am not qualified to ensure a balanced Deity game. Also, in sgotm18 we will introduce some new stuff... and EMP might be appropriate, except seeing how IMM vs EMP is not a big deal for teams, I'm favoring another IMM game. If it turns out to be not challenging enough, I'll reconsider the Deity question for SGOTM19 (if you haven't fired me by then).

 

[pepe26]

You're doing fine, bro! No danger of firing any time soon, I believe

I'd like an IMM game way more than an EMP game. You can't even trade stuff well on EMP because the AIs tech speed is such a joke.

 

[Folket]

If we want a challenging game why don't we play always war with Diety AIs thats start in a later age. And victory goes to whoever last longest.