SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

Fippy posted this tech summary in regards to Cathy's tasks.
Trying some tech sumups.
Needed for all 3 clues:
- Printing Press, SciMe, Physics, Electricity
- Construction, Engi, Gunpowder, Chemistry (super ship?), Steel
- Guilds, Banking, Rep. Parts

+ Clue a) (Resources)
- Philo, Natio, Constitution, Education, Economics, Corporation
- Steam Power, Railroad, Combustion, Assembly Line, Industrialism
- (Plastics)

+ Clue b) (Tanks)
All of clue a minus Plastics and plus Rifling

+ Clue c) (Apollo)
- Biology, Refrigeration, Superconductors (~23k)
- Rifling, Artillery, Rocketry (~19.2k)

Cathy's a) and b) are very similar in terms of tech required except in the event that off shore oil is required (this seems fairly likely though) in which case a) is clearly inferior. If Sci Meth reveals that the oil is accessible then a) is probably a bit faster and easier, but there would be the issue of not knowing where to put workers to be ready to mine aluminum ASAP. c) is an entirely different tech path though so it would be a matter of choosing between a/b or c.

We were toying around with the idea of relocating Cathy's capitol to our continent for fast tank gifting via RRs from our core cities. c) looked a bit more difficult due to the huge hammers needed and also the fact that you kind of need both Rocketry and Superconductors early to get started on Apollo and Labs, but you are forced to go for one and delay the other. TSR seems to be giving c) serious consideration though so I'm really interested to see how the teams tackle these.

On a different note I was a bit surprised to see that PD pursued Music here. The entire Aesthetics line lacks appeal here from the start with no marble anywhere nearby and the value of the Music GA is diminished IMO due to the Philo trait. A free great person is obviously still valuable, but that's a pretty large price to pay in beakers that could be spent getting other techs faster. It feels awkward to question a team with such a magnificent track record, but i would be interested in hearing their justification.
 
Yes, I've been thinking about this. The air units actually have to be in her city, so airships will not do. Rifling is not needed, though. Muskets are enough, theoretically.
 
Xteam have an interesting save going. Techwise they could be ahead of game for now. Not sure it will last.Early Bureau will make up for some of the loss of trade routes on the one non coastal city. Question is can they catch up on the other teams empire size?

Their biggest issue seems to be time. Over half the game time up and less than half the game complete. If teams can finish this game by T160-170 I will be impressed. Especially with late game techs required. No vassels and 9 other AI. I guess they only need to conquer 60% of map.

To maintain focus on this map with a high level of micro will mean a lot of effort late game.
 
Tanks require Rifling though.
That's true :) Need to make muskets in advance. :(

Gumbolt: XTeam is obviously ahead on techs given that the oracled CS and switched to Bur shortly after. We can already see that JÄE and TSR are behind on schedule compared to the PR save. MGN are trailing JÄE in the 0 AD comparison.
I think so far in SGOTM history there were no unfinished games due to shortage of time. And so far asking for an extension has always been possible (at least once)), so I'm not yet worried about XTeam not finishing. Rather worried about them catching up on cities :) PD and especially TSR are doing better in that department.

EDIT: yep, Flight is needed for Carriers and Fighters, right? Gunships would require Rocketry as well as Flight so the former is better.
 
Yes, I've been thinking about this. The air units actually have to be in her city, so airships will not do. ...
:confused:
You can rebase airships as well as other air units into a friendly civ's city.
Spoiler :
We wanted more but 4 is the limit in BtS without airport.
 
I didn't understand UE statement regarding airships either. I assumed I missed something. She has been spot on with other things. I know PR was planning airships. They do state air unit.

Whipping 4-5 mustets would not be hard here. I suspect many teams may go for rifles to finish off the AI here. Galleons and rifles would work well here for quick Ai kills by sea.
 
:confused:
You can rebase airships as well as other air units into a friendly civ's city.
Spoiler :
We wanted more but 4 is the limit in BtS without airport.
:confused: I thought that worked only with vassals. But if this can be done, then Physics is enough.
 
Looks like some pretty good analysis of the clues at FE Post #940. What are they missing? (Besides knowledge of the map and AI - the next page in their thread has some ... interesting ... speculation.)

Spoiler :
shulec said:
Analysis of the clues. I want to dive into the clues to help us decide where to go from here.

Each clue should be considered as to whether it can be accomplished by Domination, Diplomation, or Diplomatic/Religious (but to be referred to as Diplomatic going forward.


Elizabeth

1. Rename the proudest ship ever to sail the oceans after her and gift it to her (needs at least 50xp to be worthy)

Primary needs: Requires 4 GG, or 3 GG plus 10 XP from combat/build bonuses (e.g drydock)
Secondary conditions: Requires that Liz be alive at time of gift.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Several privateers lurking in the oceans. None have been spotted, so they are not out there.

If Domination victory: This will greatly help us acquire GGs, however, Liz would be a logical victim of our wars. She could be kept alive by giving her one of Shaka or WvO's crappy cities, but keeping her alive will result in unwanted "we want to join the Motherland" unhappiness. It could also affect drafting if we went that route.
Diplomation victory: Same as above, assuming we kill Liz. If we allow her to live for the votes, this simplifies diplomacy, but makes domination aspect more difficult.
Diplomatic: This goal is not reasonably attainable without the GGs.

Strategic Assessment: A Privateer will not find enough targets, while, at the same time it will be hunted. Not a good option if not going for diplomatic or domination. Doable for diplomation. Not the best option in my opinion.

2. Build a huge statue of her and celebrate it with the biggest party of all time (construct The Colossus, Christo Redentor or The Statue of Liberty during a Golden Age that has at least 11 turns left at time of completion)(not the whole construction needs to happen during the GA, just the completion)

Primary needs: 11 Turn GA, building appropriate wonder.
Secondary conditions: Research Democracy or Mass Media
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Pre-Build MoM. Not built based on Wonder Screen.

If Domination victory: Easily accomplished, there should be plenty of strong cities to build it.
Diplomation victory: Again, easily accomplished as with domination.
Diplomatic victory: Easily accomplished, but fewer overall hammers are available throughout the empire to use for this.

Strategic Assessment:
MoM/Colossus - is difficult to accomplish at this point. WvO could already be building it and perhaps an overseas AI. WvO doesn't have copper, so this decreases the likelihood of him building it. Accomplishing this early frees up some late game research will will be important for Cathy's clues. Early game hammers for Colossus have a low return on their investment due to obsolescence with Astro
Statue of Lib - requires a deviation from late game tech goals for Democracy. Democracy must be prioritized to prevent AI from building. MoM or consecutive GA required.
Cristo Redentor - requires tech path deviation of going for domination, syncs well with diplomacy or diplomation. 11 turn GA is a bit late, but helps research industrialism, and builds tanks.
BEST OPTION!!

3. Bring her all the luxuries of the world (gift her at the same time: Gold, silver, gems, ivory, fur, pearls(clam), wine and silk. If she already has some, ignore these.)

Primary needs: These resources need to be taken by force since we have only Clams and fur in our territory.
Secondary conditions: Liz must be alive. The gift must be given before Industialism, when Ivory obseletes.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Limiting the number of these resources and placing some of them in lands that will require great resources to conquer and control.

If Domination victory: Works well. Helps us acquire leaders.
Diplomation victory: Possible, but the resources may be in lands of those from whom we hope to get diplomacy votes.
Diplomatic victory: Nearly impossible
Strategic Assessment: Poor option. Execution of this goal will be driven by resources location.

Isabella

1. Have the most brilliant minds of your time explain to her that your love is pure, true and eternal (bring one artist, scientist and prophet to her capital and gift them to her)

Primary needs: Said Great People
Secondary conditions: Access to Isabella's capitol
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Isabella's capitol could be landlocked behind some nasty AIs. She could be preset with heavy diplo negatives toward us. Isabella could be preset to love everyone on her continent, and us warring against them could make her hate us and not want to have open borders.

If Domination victory: Domination could make this easy, but could make it difficult if there is a diplomacy trap.
Diplomation victory: Same as for Domination
Diplomatic victory: This should be easy for diplomatic, but slows our progress to Mass Media (fewer GS bulbs).
Strategic Assessment: This option looks very easy on the surface, but it could be a trap if the Mapmaker performed diplomacy evil. Very good option if not diplomatically tainted.

2. Build her a luxurious summer residence (Gift her a city built on desert and next to the coast or an oasis that has an Odeon, a Grocer and a Castle), you must be at +3 relations with her when you gift this city.

Primary needs: We need a coastal/oasis desert city that Isabella will accept. She must be at +3 diplo with us.
Secondary conditions: Castle must be built before economics. Grocer cannot be built before Guilds.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Again, this option looks easy on the surface, but it could be a trap if the Mapmaker performed diplomacy evil, or if Isabella's lands are secluded and/or landlocked, making the city gift difficult.

If Domination victory: Domination could make this easy if there is no diplo trap.
Diplomation victory: Similar to domination
Diplomatic victory: Very difficult if Isabella's empire is not tiny.
Strategic Assessment: Not a great option. City gifting can be done anywhere on the map if the recipient has 3 cities or less. If he has more than three cities, we can only gift a chain of cities if they are seven tiles away (diagonal count as 1.5) away from an Isabella city. This also requires that her economy be in good shape for her to accept the cities. We may have to trim her city count by war, but may have a hard time keeping her at +3 diplo or better.


1. Invent a whole new style of music to express your love and let the whole world hear it (Construct Rock N Roll and gift all Singles away for free, or gift Singles to all players alive)

Primary needs: Build Rock 'n' Roll.
Secondary conditions: No AI can be refusing to talk at the time of the gift.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this:

If Domination victory: Requires additional research in the late game beyond Industrialism.
Diplomation victory: Gels well with diplomacy.
Diplomatic victory: Gels well with diplomacy.
Strategic Assessment: This could very well be the best option, unless we go domination.

Catherine

1. Take control of the worlds most important resources: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources (control = have inside your borders and connected to your trade network)

Primary needs: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources
Secondary conditions: Requires physics, combustion, and fission; may require plastics for off-shore platforms.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: scatter these resources all over the world and make them hard to acquire

If Domination victory: Easiest way to achieve
Diplomation victory: Not as easy to achieve. We will anger many potential voters.
Diplomatic victory: Not possible.
Strategic Assessment: To difficult to accomplish unless the map littered with these resources added by the mapmaker. Bad option

2. Prove your might with a military parade in her honor (have the following units in her capital at the same time: 12 armored units, 4 air units and 12 gunpowder units, commanded by a general (unconnected))

Primary needs: 12 tanks, 4 airships, 12 musketmen, 1 GG.
Secondary conditions: Oil. Industrialism, steel, railroad, combustion. OB with Catherine. Access to her capitol. Air units are limited in their range. Airship have a range of 8. (Fighters 6, Jet fighters 10, Stealth bombers 12) We need to build airships on the same continent as Catherine, or there must be cities in range for airships to "layover" in on their journey to Catherine's capitol. Otherwise 2 carriers are needed with sea access to Catherine's land or an ally's city on her continent with access to her cities.
Plastics is not an end around for steel/RR/combustion.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this: Putting AIs with extreme Pericles hate around Catherine limiting access.

If Domination victory: This works best with this condition.
Diplomation victory: This works reasonably well.
Diplomatic victory: This will be difficult due to late research and difficulties getting units to Catherine.
Strategic Assessment: This may be very difficult if our access to Catherine is limited. BEST OPTION

3. Be the first to get a serious Space Program running (be the first to complete Apollo Program and build three parts of the spaceship, your choice)

Primary needs: Complete Apollo Program before all other AI. . Build 3 SS parts.
Secondary conditions: Requires Rifling, artillery, rocketry, physics, electricity, Biology, refrigeration and superconductors. Aluminum cuts 1600 :hammers: Apollo Program and 1200 :hammers: thrusters costs in half.
How the evil mapmaker could complicate this:

If Domination victory: This will mean a lot of extra teching, but a large empire can better handle the hammers needed.
Diplomation victory: Similar to domination
Diplomatic victory: A lot of extra teching.
Strategic Assessment: This is a lot of extra teching and also a lot of extra hammers.

 
Well i disagree with shulec that Elizabeth #2 is the best option. He says it himself there twice - "requires tech deviation" which is a huge discouragement IMO. #1 and #3 can both be achieved without diverting from the critical tech path even if they do require heavy warfare to achieve.

The only way i see that being a solid option is if they manage to do a standard UN diplo victory, but that doesn't mesh very well with the Catherine missions. The stronger games will likely include heavy warfare and conquering a large portion of the map.

I also think that any mission involving gifting away 3 great people is bad. The value of 3 great people could be ~6000 beakers, ~5000g, or 1 late game 12T golden age which makes it just as costly as diverting to some expensive late game tech. Not to mention that 1 is a prophet which would be a pain to get and likely result in some very non-optimal GPP setup where other cities are held back while waiting on the prophet.

I still think Izzy #2 is the way to go even if it does require diverting to Engineering or delaying Economics slightly. The other requirements (outside of the castle) are extremely easy.
 
I also think that any mission involving gifting away 3 great people is bad. The value of 3 great people could be ~6000 beakers, ~5000g, or 1 late game 12T golden age which makes it just as costly as diverting to some expensive late game tech. Not to mention that 1 is a prophet which would be a pain to get and likely result in some very non-optimal GPP setup where other cities are held back while waiting on the prophet.

Not sure I disagree regarding the optimal choice but you can run a lot of priests by building temples (1 per) and cathedrals (2 per). With a bonus resource, cathedrals aren't very expensive. Popping a Prophet isn't that hard if you want to---it's just that usually you don't want to. :)
 
Not sure I can follow shulec there either. As far as GGs go, you need either 2 + 10 XP or 3. Not 4. 20 XP per GG.
Well i disagree with shulec that Elizabeth #2 is the best option. He says it himself there twice - "requires tech deviation" which is a huge discouragement IMO. #1 and #3 can both be achieved without diverting from the critical tech path even if they do require heavy warfare to achieve.

The only way i see that being a solid option is if they manage to do a standard UN diplo victory, but that doesn't mesh very well with the Catherine missions. The stronger games will likely include heavy warfare and conquering a large portion of the map.

I also think that any mission involving gifting away 3 great people is bad. The value of 3 great people could be ~6000 beakers, ~5000g, or 1 late game 12T golden age which makes it just as costly as diverting to some expensive late game tech. Not to mention that 1 is a prophet which would be a pain to get and likely result in some very non-optimal GPP setup where other cities are held back while waiting on the prophet.

I still think Izzy #2 is the way to go even if it does require diverting to Engineering or delaying Economics slightly. The other requirements (outside of the castle) are extremely easy.
Absolutely agree. Anything that means "tech deviation" has to be investigated critically, as in general tech is the bottleneck for this game (either of Catherine's options). Hence going Liz 2 makes the game slower imo. Agree on the assessment on Izzy 2 as well. That looks to be by far the easiest option. Teams like PD will likely rush(-bulb) Engineering anyway, so even the castle isn't that big a deal.
 
The first GG provides 20xp, but subsequent GGs can only provide 10xp since they have to be attached to another unit.
 
Most of them are closing in on 1AD now.
 
A 1400ad finish would be 200 turns. With the tech requirement this game that might not be so easy. About a month and a half left. I don't see the top teams finishing 1-2 weeks early here. Maybe they can suprise with a pre 1400ad finish. Once you have a huge empire you can soon start building up 2-3k beakers a turn.
 
Well SGOTM18 required Flight and Fascism for Paratroopers plus the Mass Media line for UN victory along with the espionage culture to get the Swinger's Pad to legendary, and the top 3 teams managed to achieve all of that on T180, T182, and T186. I think that's a fairly similar amount of teching compared to this SGOTM.

The land was probably a little bit better on that map, and there wasn't any naval warfare to deal with (well very little), but i still wouldn't be surprised to see finish dates at least close to that, maybe in the T190s. T180's could very well be possible.

Comparing TSR's 1AD save from SGOTM21 and SGOTM18:

Cities: 15 vs 15
Techs: Optics and about 2T from Astro (bulb) vs CS, Paper, Philo, and Music so a bit behind there
Power: 288k vs 475k
BPT: 310 vs 439 (but with golden age and bureau)
Pop: 91 vs 69
 
Nice amount of maps posted by Duckweed in PD :)

Duckweed said:
Pause @T110

Updated maps

England, there's a great spot available in our north. Therefore, I'll send the settler from Argos north instead of south, and will produce a WB from Phar with OF from cata whip.

Spoiler :




China. I took Doshin's comment and delayed the rice trade, unfortunately Mao trade rice to Toku next turn. Sorry for the rice trade, but we won't be short of health for while with the Corn from Liz. Our scouting WB also met Cathy's WB, her location should be in the NW corner of the map.

Spoiler :




France

Spoiler :




Mali, Izzy shares the same continent with Mansa, as you can see her culture west of the incense.

Spoiler :




New Fish island

Spoiler :




Shaka's 1st HA is close to the barbarian city, his major SOD is also moving toward that direction.

Spoiler :




As you can see that Mansa started Phi last turn (I don't have Kaitzilla's luck on controlling his tech choice, Mansa's last tech is Monarchy and he completed it in 2 turns). Shall we start Machinery? I'm undecided, I'd like to hear your reasons.
 
Starting to see some real separation between the top two teams and everyone else now.

-MGN is about 30T behind in expansion/warring and tech

-Jag is roughly 20T behind in the same areas

-Xteam is still doing OK tech-wise, but they are starting to fall way behind in warring/expansion. They are working about 2/3 of the tiles and have 2/3 of the cities that TSR had at the same point plus no military so they will likely get left in the dust soon.

-FE is starting to fall behind in tech (and appear to be about to self-tech Calendar which won't help), and have only met 3 AI which is a striking comparison to the Ducks who had met all 9 on the same date. Like Xteam, they have yet to start a military buildup which is really where the top teams tend to start distancing themselves. Early aggressive and efficient warring is just so powerful. They will have many more developed cities later in the game cranking out beakers.
 
Looks like Xteam have several pults now. So should be ready for war soon. If they can play out the save in 4 months they look likely for 3rd. They have a lot of turns to play. 90-100+ turns in 35 days. 3 turns a day. Dhoom has got his work cut out here. A turn 200 finish would require a lot of micro and Dhooms guidance.

The CS slingshot was an interesting idea but still not sure Oracle was right for this game. Slower warring and slower expansion has really cost them. Be interesting to see if PD can make it pay off. Won't write off PD yet. TSR seem to be doing very well at present.

PD are a few turns ahead of TSR but 28 cities is very impressive!!
 
Going by the predicted finish times in TSR/PD threads, TSR seems to feel far ahead.

TSR - WT estimating T180 and LC hoping for pre-T172.
PD - Duckweed estimating 70 turns left at T130.

Maybe PD will feel more optimistic after they get the rest of their hints?
 
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