SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

[UnforcedError]

People said they hated randomness. If anyone would have told me "We only lost cause we were unlucky scouting / we didn't find them in time" I would have pointed to that clue

Good point

Yes, I'm still interested in playtesting. I'm pretty sure I don't want to play (assuming this is about the next SGOTM). And my normal level used to be Imm / Deity two years ago, albeit I'm a bit rusty nowadays. Definitely can't play better than a whole team though.

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry to see PR disband, but good luck to Fippy. I hope you sort out the RL problems. Your own health is a lot more important than a computer game.

Thanks for the overview UE Looks like PR were indeed doing well.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Great overview UnforcedError

In order to make a fair comparison between the teams I think we need to know also the infrastructure in the cities @T85.

Anyone but me who dare to guess the laurel winners? My bet is here.

 

[UnforcedError]

You're all welcome

In order to make a fair comparison between the teams I think we need to know also the infrastructure in the cities @T85.

Fair point. Added city infrastructure info.

As of the winners: I feel that oracling Currency was a bit of a mistake on this map, especially that they built GLH for more trade commerce anyway. That doesn't mean that PD or JÄE are out of the competition (we can see that they are doing fairly well even compared to TSR in particular), but they will have to catch up on cities. It will also be interesting to see how XTeam can recover from teching CoL and building the Oracle in a hurry. Meanwhile PD has teched Music. Shawshank's last save from T101 looks good indeed (up to 12 cities via war).

Had they played on, my money would have been on PR, to be honest.

 

[BSPollux]

There are people with high skill levels but limited flexibility in some of the teams. I'd like to see a team win that plays a little more "flexible".

 

[UnforcedError]

I will do an overview again when the teams have reached 1AD. That should already be more telling.

 

[Gumbolt]

Had they played on, my money would have been on PR, to be honest.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. We always start our games saying we will play for fun. It niever quite works out like that. (Oh AlanH has removed all our save so we can no longer compare. )

I think TSR will do what they normally do well. 350bc and Willem is almost down and they had 1 more city than us. We were slightly ahead on astronomy from what I can see. I think their second attack would of been well ahead of ours. We were also fighting off a frustrating Shaka. Weak units but lots of them.

Personally I don't think Oracle was way to go here. We skipped it because there was too much risk. We knew from the Demo screen one Ai had serious hammers. We were quite worried about getting GLH let alone Oracle. Oracle got built 1440bc? on our game. 2000bc was not impossible. I am suprised no team was beaten to GLH. So many coastal Ai starts and an industrial AI.

 

[BSPollux]

Oracle got built 1440bc? on our game. 2000bc was not impossible.

Some test results from the early game:

Spoiler :

 

[UnforcedError]

Doshin's Weekly Micro Nuggets

New micro trick that I discovered on Friday. This was amazing for me.

Example One

Spoiler :

Earlier in the game, Knossos had to work a Plains Forest to enable a 1-pop whip at size 2:

Spoiler :

Switching a Grass Forest to a Plains Forest is worth: –1F +1H.
Whipping at size 2 > size 3 is worth: +1F.

Total: 0F +1H

Ok, good deal.

However!

Spoiler :

Er, 24/24F at size 2, allowing a whip to size 1???

Working a Grass Forest is now worth: 0F 0H.
Whipping at size 2 > size 3 is worth: +1F.

Total: +1F

Better deal!

Example Two

Spoiler :

Player A: "Oh no! I couldn't chop my Granary in time."

Spoiler :

Booo. What a waste of food.

Player A's city grows to size 3 on T110:

Player B: "I couldn't whip it in time either. But nevermind. Guess I'll just slow things down for a turn."

Spoiler :

What a nice full Granary.

Player B's city grows to size 3 on T109:



+6 overall and an extra turn of growth, which snowballs.

Example Three

Spoiler :

This is from Sheep/Iron city. The Granary completes when the food basket is at 18/22F. The city screen looks like this:

Spoiler :

Note the: "Turns on Avoid Growth" governor option.

If we continue to grow, the city reaches size 2 on T101. On T102 the city has 7F 11H:

Spoiler :

If we pause growth, the city stays at size 1 on T101. On T102 the city has 12F 6H:

Spoiler :

Remember to switch off the "Avoid City Growth" option after 1 turn! Or you will be stuck at size 1 forever.

The micro always needs to support the macro. If Sheep/Iron growing to size 2 on T101 would let us build a Worker and set up Fish City sooner (or build a Galley/Trireme 1 turn earlier) this would be better.

However, the earlier growth and extra hammers make no difference. Using a Forest and extra hammers to complete an earlier Worker here would actually slow Fish City down.

So it is better to grow one turn later with +5F –5H overall.

Imagine optimizing growth in various small ways like this across a game, and it's huge.

 

[Gumbolt]

This is the difference between the casual teams and the top teams. Snowball from 1 city to 20 cities doing perfect whips would be huge. Could work out at well over 8-9+ turns per city.

Then add better macro when planning game. Choices of techs, builds etc. Better warfare too. Knowing when to split up stacks and how to get Ai to vassel quickly. Planning warfare to quickly wipe out an AI in 2-3 turns.

Let's also not forget worker micro. How many times do you move a worker it's full 2mp and not do any action for the 2nd MP? I now always try to fit in another action if I am likely to lose a worker turn. Or partly comple an improvement if you know you have to pass back later to a tile to complete it. Wasted worker turns is a big issue.

This is the unique thing about civ 4. There is so many places where you can do things differently.

 

[UnforcedError]

This is the unique thing about civ 4. There is so many places where you can do things differently.

Exactly. And in SGOTM it really makes sense to ask: can we do this or that one turn sooner? Because if you can, chances are you will skim 3 turns in achieving the next stage, and it's going to get better and better.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thanks for the infra numbers, UnforcedError. It will be interesting to see if PD can convert their lead in infrastructure to a lead overall. But TSR have started the war earlier and perhaps that will be significant. So far I stick with my first guess: 1. TSR, 2. PD 3. XTeam.

 

[WillowBrook]

Woohoo, we get to see the rest of the clues (other than the location clue) when BSP gets back online!

 

[Izuul]

I'm really interested to see Isabella's final task. While the Catherine tasks are currently determining the finish line, the Isabella tasks make getting to it slower and more awkward. Giving up 3 great people in a game like this is a huge deal, and also trying to pop a prophet is either going to be very unreliable or very suboptimal, if not both.

And while the other task initially looked good to my team, there is an issue there with Economics removing the ability to build castles. Engineering is something that I'm sure everyone would like to trade for and not self-tech, but that could mean delaying Econ which is a strong tech here. It's also something that Mansa tends to head for so there could be some danger of losing the GM if forced to delay Econ while waiting for Engineering and the castle. If not for that little issue this would've easily been the best task in the game.

 

[BSPollux]

Done

 

[UnforcedError]

I don't think there's any need to see all tasks, given that we see Catherine's either of which defines the bottleneck for the overall finish. Liz 1 is easy enough, completable with 2.5 GGs, maybe Liz 3 is simple as well, Izzy 2 is easily doable (an AI takes any city on the map as a gift when reduced to <3 cities). Cathy's tasks however all require teching.

EDIT: in any case, summary post updated to include missing clues.

 

[Izuul]

c) Bring her all the luxuries of the world (gift her at the same time: Gold, silver, gems, ivory, fur, pearls(clam), wine and silk. If she already has some, ignore these.)

This seems really easy, but none of the teams have enough map knowledge to determine how accessible these resources are. I guess PR had the most map knowledge since we got maps from Louis and Mao before retiring, but our save is gone now and i didn't download one.

The last Izzy task is likely a throw away. Radio is a wasted tech here (and an expensive one) unless pursuing a UN victory, but that doesn't strike me as optimal in this game. I would expect domination here given the overall techs required and the length of the game.

Thanks Packers.

Fur, gems, and clams should already be within borders. Ivory is easy - can even get it early by trading with Mansa. Silver by France is likely easy to grab pretty early... or you could just pop it like TSR Wine and silk could potentially come from trade with China or by taking him out later. Gold looks like it would require taking out Mansa or Toku unless there's more elsewhere. Seems like a pretty easy task. If nothing else it's a really doable alternative if the 50xp boat fails.

 

[Packers5280]

Here's the most recent PR save that I downloaded. Looking at it, the wine that's available is in China, Au is in Japan and Mali, Ivory is in Mali and south of Mao, the silk is S of Mao as well, and Isa already has silver, gems, and clams. So the 3rd clue supports domination as well. Edit: whoops thought thought was QIDC not Liz. Either way it is doable.

Looks like either QIDC is a bit tricky to decide on. The summer palace is the most obvious, but getting it done before economic would require teching Eng rather than trading it, 3 GPs is very expensive, and going for radio is out of the way, except for UN. Maybe a diplomination? Lot of teching required in this game.

 

[UnforcedError]

Looks like either QIDC is a bit tricky to decide on. The summer palace is the most obvious, but getting it done before economic would require teching Eng rather than trading it, 3 GPs is very expensive, and going for radio is out of the way, except for UN. Maybe a diplomination? Lot of teching required in this game.

The thing is that with Cathy's tasks being so far down the way you can do anything for the other two that don't require much effort. Bulbing Engineering after Astro (without Medi and CS) is certainly managable and would even fit the dom strategy, so the summer palace might be the one to for for the majority of the teams. 2.5 GG is nothing, given that you want to war anyway. Remember that you have to tech like crazy to research for Cathy. Plenty of time to get either the GGs or the lux resources.

EDIT: also interesting to see which one of Cathy's tasks will be the easiest on the map:

Spoiler :

Catherine ("Catherine's heart has to be conquered. You will have to prove your might to her by...")
a) Take control of the worlds most important resources: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources (control = have inside your borders and connected to your trade network).
b) Prove your might with a military parade in her honor (have the following units in her capital at the same time: 12 armored units, 4 air units and 12 gunpowder units, commanded by a general (unconnected))
c) Be the first to get a serious Space Program running (be the first to complete Apollo Program and build three parts of the spaceship, your choice)

a. requires Industrialism, Physics, Combustion and due to the number of the Oil resources possibly also Plastics (10??? ) You would also have to juggle your empire around the bit, not to win dom before you connect all these.
b. Requires a GG, Gunpowder, Physics and Industrialism. Plus some 1000 to build the units. Looks quite friendly compared to the others.
c. Hm. Rocketry and then Superconductors to get something cheap to build the parts with. then 1600 + 3*1200 base .

So b. it is, right?

 

[Seraiel]

Thx a lot for the statistics too, UnforcedError!