SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

[Deckhand]

SGOTM 21 Lurker's thread


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[Deckhand]

Delaying selection of 1st tech.
I've read this before, but haven't done it.
Plastics Ducks discussed this in posts 67 - 74 (and I asked a question about it), meanwhile EliteTroops (Jag älskar er )

Spoiler :

I don't get it, but somehow I gain one beaker in the test game by not choosing tech until T5. I don't meet anybody, and all the AI should have AG researched from the start, so why do I gain the beaker?

Anyway, this one beaker allows us to reach agr one turn earlier and not waste any worker turns. Most importantly, we can get BW one turn earlier this way, allowing us to reap the benefits of the gems earlier. Only downside is that we lose a few hammers in cap because we would have to work fur instead of deer the three turns while worker is building the first camp.

The benefits are huge! Compared to my other takes cap has a large lead in food with wheat improved earlier, and I have more beakers invested in next tech+more gold in treasury at T31. Plus we win one worker turn when he doesn't need to stand around while waiting for agr.

EDIT - This was also discussed in some other threads. I will post three from TSR:

Spoiler :

Mitchum #52: "Hmmm... so if we don't pick a tech at all until T5, the accumulation of beakers over 5 turns gives us +1 B? I didn't know that..."

Pollina #53: "Only when you get a tech discount. In this case we get one from WvO knowing Ag."

Jastrow #58

Tech modifier... We get a discount of:

.3 * #civs we know with tech/10 (number of civs at start)

So, in this case, since willy knows ag, 3% bonus.

This means that if we bundle at least 34 beakers, then we get an extra one.

 

[BSPollux]

Deckhand please add this to the warning:

The program TapTalk (and maybe others) alerts users if someone on CivFanatics quotes them. So if you use a quote from a team thread and post it here, they may click the link they get by that program and end up reading this thread, violating the game rules! To avoid that, you have to edit the quote in the following way:

If you click the 'qoute' button, the openeing tag will include the name and the account number of the original poster, like this: QUOTE=Deckhand;13635372 You have to remove the semicolon and the account number, so that only QUOTE=Deckhand remains in the opening tag of the quote. Now the program wont be triggered any more. This is important, so don't forget it!

 

[BSPollux]

Early scouting reveals: This map is not as rich as the last one, at least near the start position. I'm curious how they will react to that.

 

[Deckhand]

from haphazard1 MGN #78: "... But I doubt the map makers would leave us with a lot of empty land nearby -- too easy for early REX to turn the game into a cake walk."

OTOH, doesn't putting civs nearby (like last SG) make an early rush a cake walk?

 

[WillowBrook]

WastinTime predicts in post #116 that everyone will have the same 3 (presumably first) cities. That's 21 identical decisions - seems rather unlikely to me. But maybe I underestimate the power of test maps to identify optimal play? We'll see....

 

[Deckhand]

WastinTime predicts in post #116 that everyone will have the same 3 (presumably first) cities. That's 21 identical decisions - seems rather unlikely to me. But maybe I underestimate the power of test maps to identify optimal play? We'll see....

Test maps + team thinking. I expect all to settle 2E, cows, gems. Whether they all settle exact same sites...
And I think I know where cities 4 & 5 will go.

Spoiler :

In my test game, the scout explored west first and then looped around east. I put cities at two other places before double gems. Also I didn't share the wheat and it grew too slowly.

 

[GKey]

First 3 city sites seem to be obvious indeed.

 

[BSPollux]

I don't agree with that

 

[vranasm]

WastinTime predicts in post #116 that everyone will have the same 3 (presumably first) cities. That's 21 identical decisions - seems rather unlikely to me. But maybe I underestimate the power of test maps to identify optimal play? We'll see....

civilization IV is often times game of tradeoffs... I didn't run any simulations/tests/plays with the game, since I basically didn't touch civ iv for like 1 year (and didn't lurk team threads yet to know how teams decided), but

I would probably settle capital 1NE from current position to get the wet wheat and make place for deer city south

the second city I would probably opt for 1E of cows, that way you can improve cows right away and still have gems in 2nd ring, even though pericles is creative, I like having food resource in 1st ring and the city doesn't lose much

but I could be quite off the mark with this... I can see that there can be strong arguments for SIP (2 hills, deer, crabbies, coastal), moving NE of course makes the city 1 off coast (no lighthouse), but the crabbies can be still worked if gems city makes workboat "soon", you get 1 more hill, the northern gems lose wheat though...which is problematic without further scouting.

there is another possible move for capital and that is 1SE because you have worker and the deer can be improved from t1 (or t2? not sure about the position of worker because I look at the SS only)

another possible capital position would be 1E, which has deer, wheat and crabbie, but doesn't have that hill.

One thing that is against wheat is that pericles doesn't start with agri (I hope I remember it right that greece starts with fishing+hunting).

The simple fact that the teams got worker can change a lot the considerations of capital position and can influence then the position of other cities how they fit the "matrix" how to optimize usage of all resources....

as I typed all the possibilities...I start to lean a bit about retaining the deer for capital since it can be improved from get go and you should use your worker if you have him.
And you would have to tech mining first tech to use those open hills, agri have to wait if you go for deer.

the 2nd tech is another great consideration...either you go for agri which boosts AH and then you actually don't go 2nd city cows+gem, but wheat+gems or you can go straight AH for blocking more land.

Welp I think I will have to launch the game afternoon and try some moves after like 1 year

edit: just another thought... usually you have 15 turns delay/time for your first tech research because you build the worker, so the usual decision without worker could be on the wheat side of things, but this is not traditional starting position, because you have the worker and you should surely adjust the gameplay for such fact.

 

[vranasm]

ok I run only like 3 runs of first cca 20-25 turns of the starting position.

I think it's pretty obvious you need to have deer in BFC because of the starting techs and worker.

So there are basically 3 I think best possible locations, 1SE from current settler position, 1E and 2E.

My first initial metric usually is how quickly can I get out the first settler.

The 2E position is actually best position for getting out work boat due to the crab east which can be worked then.

from the tests the 1SE is slowest, city 2 settled at T27 wheat is not improved (but that could be mistake with teching mining before agri so the worker has at least something to do)

2E (the spot most teams used) seems good with T25 city 2 settled (I settled it 1S from the gems since that seems like a lot of team prefers due to closeness of 1N above wheat and 2 gems in BFC), this is imo primer spot if you plan to go GLH. I started to build settler size 3, but there is question if settler size 4 wouldn't be better/not delayed much, because at the point of starting settler the capital had 3 turns to grow to size 4, but I don't think that much infra to support this.

1E actually has quickest city 2 with T23 settled spot 1N above wheat (makes a bit more sense with 1E), the initial drawbacks are 1 off coast, which almost screams "no GLH". This spot has cca 6 food slower capital then 2E (the crab really pays dividends relatively quickly, because the WB is quick build with improved deer)


I think a lot of teams considered the GLH as strongest point in decision and long term better potential which probably will easily outpay the 2 turns quicker city 2 of the 1E spot.
The visible island to the east screams "3 2-C trade routes" and is guarantee so you don't really take gamble with GLH on unknown map.

further scout will just reinforce the GLH idea.

i think since all teams settled 2E, the city 2 1S from gems is given with the improved wheat, 2 gems in BFC and otherwise too close city 2 to capital.

city 3 is a bit in the air imo, I personally would prefer 1E from cows.

city 4 will probably be island city with fur and crabbies... am around 90% sure especially if teams land GLH around T60 (didn't playtested that deep btw, that's my estimation).


there seems to be good spot with the corn and gems above city 2 spot which will take over gems from city 2. and there is that strong island with 3 fishes and 4 PH's which will be scouted and settled as city 6 probably.

6 cities on standard size map is somewhat standard number of cities and I don't think the map layout is superficially bad...i think the land is actually quite decent. Seems to me like specialists map especially with creative trait. I wouldn't run here cottages.

 

[BSPollux]

vranasm it's nice to read that you are testing as well and by all means keep your analysis coming, but please don't reveal any vital map info early on. And if you do use spoiler tags, please.

Lets try to move the lurker analysis at the same speed as the game, ok? more fun that way

Oh and: Why didn't you join a team?

 

[vranasm]

vranasm it's nice to read that you are testing as well and by all means keep your analysis coming, but please don't reveal any vital map info early on. And if you do use spoiler tags, please.

Lets try to move the lurker analysis at the same speed as the game, ok? more fun that way

Oh and: Why didn't you join a team?

well mostly because I moved on from civ iv . I just constantly lurk the forums here and there and saw the L's announcement and basically I am usually intrigued by the beginnings.

dunno if I revealed anything spoilerish, if so I appologize, but I didn't play further then those 27 turns and most of what I wrote is what we can see from the starting SS.

 

[BSPollux]

Nah you didn't spoil anything, just wanted to remind you.

Btw I was on cvi5 for a few years as well, but the sgotm is just too interesting, at least for me.

 

[BSPollux]

Last game they said they'd scout a lot because it seemed important. But they didn't actually do it.
This game they said they'd scout a lot because it seemed important. But they aren't actually doing it.


Why, I ask you, why don't they ever scout? Some of them even use the free scout they are given as the defence unit for settlers.

 

[vranasm]

Last game they said they'd scout a lot because it seemed important. But they didn't actually do it.
This game they said they'd scout a lot because it seemed important. But they aren't actually doing it.


Why, I ask you, why don't they ever scout? Some of them even use the free scout they are given as the defence unit for settlers.

well sometimes you actually can spare some hammer for the spawnbusting, fogbusting warrior ;-)

and the scout can be eaten...you know...like every single time I run a test of this game!

on a more serious note... people usually do this, even AbsoluteZero does this tons of times in his LP's. You scout out area for city 2, then consolidate a bit with moving the initial unit back, especially on deity.

But with the starting location everyone chose...I wouldn't be surprised with some other unit to scout soonish (hint hint water)...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Scouting is only one priority among many.

Looks like we can congratulate Shawshank Redemption with the victory. I don't see how the other teams can compete against a 30% science boost + an extra happy face.

 

[BSPollux]

We'll see. They are a strong team anyway, I would have preferred if this happened to a weaker team. But the game is far from over and lots of things can happen.

 

[vranasm]

as usual I am quite behind the news as I somewhat check only PD and PR threads...

well that's somewhat surprising, but it's part of the game... it will be crazy big advantage in the game, but I somewhat suspect pleasing the Queens will be more troubling then getting some luck at ~t25.

will be interesting to see if the team will hunt now even more wonders then expected. (Oracle came immediately to mind, since GLH will probably be something that most team will opt for)

 

[Jenarie]

I just read through all the team threads and it is very interesting to see what is similar and what is different.

One of the most amusing things I ran into:

No copper, no iron, no horse, no hope.
Sorry to ruin your dreams.