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SGOTM3 Rome - Team Ankka

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession GOTM (SGOTM)' started by mad-bax, Jul 12, 2004.

  1. EL_OSO

    EL_OSO Warlord

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Skip over my next turn. My BIOS is messed up and I'm still having stability problems. I've decided to have someone else look at my system and don't know when I'll be back. I'll post here when I get it back.
     
  2. Shoe35

    Shoe35 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
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    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    925BC Preturn

    900BC Turn 1: Antium granary -> Spear; Found Viroconium start worker; Move fighting types, and workers, start road near Veii

    IBT French building Pyramids, Neapolis Granary -> worker

    875BC Turn 2: check trades, Joan and Liz both have Monarchy and Const. but are not dealing. Forest chopped near Ravenna start road. Start road from Cumae to Hispalis.
    Moving

    IBT Pisae Armory -> spear

    850BC Turn 3: change production in Ravenna to worker; moving; Joan, Liz still not dealing

    IBT French building hanging garderns

    825BC Turn 4: moving ask Babylon to leave our territory. Check trades Joan, Liz still not dealing. Germany has the Republic but he is refusing to deal as well.

    IBT Aztec’s complete Pyramids, America building Great Library

    800BC Turn 5: move.

    IBT Greeks building Great lighthouse, French building hanging gardens

    775BC Turn 6: move

    750BC Turn 7: Moving

    730BC Turn 8: Moving; trades still unattainable; up lux to prevent riots

    710BC Turn9: Moving; found Lugdunum -> granary; trades still a nogo

    690BC Turn10: Moving; forgot to check trades.

    Score 312





    Here is the save http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ankka_SG003_BC0690_01.SAV
     
  3. Ankka

    Ankka Deity

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    Nice job. :)


    WackenOpenAir
    shoe35
    EL OSO - skipped
    Jeff1787 - UP!
    waitingtoderail - on deck
    Ankka
     
  4. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Rome has gone to size 1, i guess someone forgot to micro the food one turn.

    Since we are now researching ourselves, should we not go for libraries rather than market places?

    Well anyway, i am gonna be away a bit in the near future:

    Friday 30-07 - Monday 02-08 i will only be on the forums but can't play.

    Tuesday 03-08 - Monday 09-08, i will not be there at all. (WackenOpenAir festival)

    Tuesday 10-08 - Sunday 14-08, i will be on the forums, but am unsure if i can play.
     
  5. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    I'll play late tonight or tomorrow......Jeff................Any suggestions are welcomed.
     
  6. Ankka

    Ankka Deity

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    I will be away from tomorrow, the 29th, to Sunday the 1st of August.
     
  7. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    WackenOpenAir
    shoe35
    EL OSO - skipped
    Jeff1787 - just played
    waitingtoderail - UP
    Ankka - on deck

    Prior to turn 1. Made peace with Russia and they gave us 80 gold. They wouldn't give any technology for peace. Traded currency to Germany for monarchy and world map. Traded currency to Babylon for construction and world map. Traded currency to Russia for 65 gold and world map. Traded currency to America for 30 gold and world map. Traded currency to France for 1 GPT and 21 gold. Please give me feedback on these trades.



    Turn 1...670 BC...Viroconium...worker-port/Cumae...spearman-legionary.

    Turn 2...650 BC...Not much going on. I am fortifying the solders in the north, not too sure what else to do with them. I am also putting some in cities to then fortify.

    Turn 3...630 BC...Veii...legionary-legionary.

    Turn 4...610 BC...Antium...legionary-legionary. English founded Newcastle on the southern peninsula, so I founded Lutetia S/W of Rome. Is that OK?

    Turn 5...590 BC...Pompeii...legionary-legionary.

    Turn 6...570 BC...Cumae...legionary-legionary...Pisae...spearman-legionary...Rome...settler-settler (not sure if this is correct unit for Rome to build). Settler moving south.

    Turn 7...550 BC...Hispalis...barracks-catapult.

    Turn 8...530 BC...Veii...legionary-legionary.

    Turn 9...510 BC...Antium...legionary-legionary.

    Turn 10...490 BC...nothing of note. The Republic in 7 turns.

    Our score is 368.

    Here is the save.
     
  8. waitingtoderail

    waitingtoderail Chieftain

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    http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ankka_SG003_BC0270_01.sav

    OK, I played my turns, but I forgot to keep track...

    The highlights -

    Founded Byzantium
    Moved troops to Southern and Eastern cities in anticipation of our first invasion. Building as many legionnairies as possible. Greece is vulnerable, and with a few more troops, I think we're nearly ready for attack.

    No major trades, other Civs had reached Republic first. Went through Revolution to Republic which ended on last turn, currently gold production VERY low, had to drop sliders to 30 and 10 %. This should change quickly as Republic is favored gov of Rome.

    Sent Rome's next settler to the peninsula south of Vironconium, I believe he should settle on this next turn.

    Made several map trades and gained a good number of gold.

    Built a number of roads connecting the more distant cities.

    Bablyon took the last possible spot for us on the opposite shore of the continent, it's too bad we couldn't have made it all the way across.

    Several nations are trying to push settlers through our territory and I've probably angered a few by demanding they get out, including demanding removal or war on America. I believe that we may want to try taking Seattle - the rest of America is far off and it would probably be an easy city grab.

    Anyway, here's a screenshot, our score is now over 430 and we've moved into 3rd place among the known nations. We need to make contact with the other continent that seems to be just off the coast of Greece. There's a few more AIs out there!
     

    Attached Files:

  9. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Ok in order:

    The trades: The trades do look pretty reasonable IF there was no option to trade republic. If you could have traded republic even with a gpt payment, that would have been the deal to go for. Monarchy is a completely unneeded tech and not worth anything for us, but as i said, if republic was not possible, it is a nice set of trades. I am VERY happy with the peace deal.

    I see you started researching republic and we will get it pretty fast. I see we are also in republic now, i like that.

    Also do i see people are eagre to go to war :D
    So we can get a GA now. Well, i like war too so all i can say is:
    lets kick some butt :rockon:
    It is a good idea to try and get some alliances though (NEVER a mutual protection though) so we wont end up us vs everyone if our opponents buy alliances.

    I want to warn now already though, when building units during that GA, keep in mind the GA will end and we should then not cripple deu to upkeep costs.

    I see an english city in the south, we might want to capture that as well :D.

    I also see however, we forgot to build naval units and scout for nearby islands, i think we should do that now. Also should we have 1 harbor to enable trading with some nations.

    We should now fight and get our GA, while we are in GA, we must prepare to get our finances right by the time the GA ends. For this, we need some size 7 cities, maybe an extra lux or 2 and maybe some marketplaces.

    For research, do anything but NOT feudalism cuz that will be the first thing the AI goes for (so we can trade it from them)

    I haven't downloaded the files, and thus do not know how much workers we have, but i think we should make some from cumea since it has a very good growth potential. Then we should irrigate some lands for the other cities so that they can all grow prosperously (and become size 7 for units support in republic)

    I hope ankka can play and upload before friday 18:00 western european time, then i will play 1 more set of turns before i'm gone for 2 weeks :D

    Corinth is also a very interesting city to take since it will grand us an extra luxury.
     
  10. waitingtoderail

    waitingtoderail Chieftain

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    If Ankka can play tonight, that would be great, if not, Wacken, you're up!
     
  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    He can also play tomorrow if he can, and me friday, not that much of a hurry :D
     
  12. Ankka

    Ankka Deity

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    I will be leaving today, and will need to pack stuff etc, so sorry, I can't play now... :undecide:
     
  13. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Ok, i have now downloaded and opened the save file.

    I imeadiately noticed 2 major mistakes. If these 2 mistakes would not have been made, we could have been MUCH MUCH MUCH more powerfull.
    Not talking down on anyone, just take it for advise when you play again.

    1: I see clowns in almost every city. First thing i did was increase the lux slider and then set to work the clowns, the happiness from the lux slider alowed enough guys to work to keep a similar financial balance. Sometimes it might be ok to use one or 2 clowns (total for your whole civ that is) but none at all is best. I try never to use any clowns. There were lots of cities that were not growing at all because the clowns take away all the food surpluss. This really has a huge impact on the long term results for a civ.

    2: There WAY TOO LITTLE workers. And seeing the crappy infrastructure, that has been so for a long time. Rule of tumb, you should always have more than 1 worker per city, preferably close to 2 per city. You should always have enough workers so that EVERY tile you work in your whole empire is completely worked. While this is not realistic when you only just fount your first 3 or 4 cities yet, it definately is so when you have more than 5 cities.
    This is the number one mistake by many players, its effect is HUGE. if we would have had enough workers and all tiles worked, the science slider would probably been over 50% now instead of 30. Both growth, science and also production would have been very much better.

    Above 2 problems really make all the difference in the world, really i cannot stress it enough, the difference this bigger than you can immagine. Some smaller things:

    We now are in financial trouble, we are also falling back in technology while we are paying 50 gold er turn for militairy upkeep. We should have had some more marketplaces and some less units.

    We have lots of units that were not attacking while our militairy strength is very much enough to conquer some things with it. In strategy games, everything you have and do not use is a waste of resources. This also is true for militairy power that you do not use.
    Sure, i did not want to fight in despotism, but therefore, we should have had some less units and some more marketplaces.

    I see some cities having 4 food surrplus while others have none at all. Always try to micro your cities and choose worker tasks carefully. Be sure that every city keeps growing. Growth is BY FAR the most important thing in the early game. Tile use and improvement should be more balanced.


    I am sorry to say it in these words, but i will try to clean up some of the mess :D
    So what to do now?:

    Since we have the militairy power for it, i will go to war in order to get a GA. This GA should give us some extra possibility to fix the current problems.
    I will stop much of the millitairy production and start some workers and marketplaces in order to stabalize our growth and financials for the future.
    The GA will help the production of marketplaces and maybe even some libraries, but marketplaces are MUCH more important atm.
    We are at the moment technologically backwards. It is very important to catch up now, but i am afraid that is gonna be very difficult, i hope peace negotiations will help solve the problems.

    I am gonna look some closer and play my turns tonight and keep you updated. Please note, i am not blaming people for the mistakes, but i don't think it is in anyone's interest if i keep silent about it. This way everyone can learn from them.
     
  14. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    Very good analysis of the game actually IMHO Wackenopenair. Constructive criticism is a big part of playing SG's and is one of the reasons playing them is the quickest and surest way to improve your game. It can be difficult to find the right words so as not to upset people, and I sympathise with you. :)

    Goodjob anyway. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    Great advice WackenOpenAir!! I think I learned more in reading those few paragraphs then I have in months. I normally MM my cities in the early game and your suggestions are great.

    I'm here to learn to be a better player, so I appreciate all of the feedback that I can get. This will help me not to make the same mistakes over again.

    I'm printing out your last post for future reference...:)
     
  16. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Thanx for those replies, i'm glad you take it positively.

    Ok, i am typing this while i am playing:

    First i am getting rid of the clowns.
    I increase the lux slider from 10 to 20%, 2 clowns are still needed though, but they can be taxmen/scientists. I started at -6gpt and now i am still at -6pgt without looking carefully where to put them to work yet.

    If i increase it to 30%, i go to -19 gpt. 13 gpt for 2 jobs is slightly too expensive now. Only slightly though, if gold was in abundance, i maybe would pay that price. That is how important it is to have your people working and not be clowns. (4-5 gpt per job i usually pay, 6-7 only if i have gold in abundance)

    I should decide who to go to war with, we are militairy superior to everyone, so all options seem to be open. Attacking the Greeks is interesting if i take the luxury from them, but don't have any techs to pay us for peace. I could attack england and america, but they only have some small towns near us and their main lands are too far away. They wont pay us much for peace if we only take these small towns. Also do i want to wait until the towns have the size or culture so that i will take them rather than destroy them.
    I will probably not attack these guys for now since i am not planning to hurt my reputation in any way. attacking them now for these small villages would mean we can't go to war with them for 20 turns.

    My plan is to attack france, they have some very good cities within our reach, and they are build on flat ground so they wont get a defence bonus. Also does france have the techs we want for peace. I am planning to take Chartres and Paris, maybe more if needed to make them pay techs. The distance however means it will be about 10 turns before we have those cities (and our golden age). Getting techs for peace will take even longer since they won't talk to use the first few turns after we started the war. Also would it not suprise me if we need to take a 3th city to make them pay well.

    This together leads me to the following decisions:
    -I was thinking about stopping research for now on engineering, i will not do so however since maybe we can have it researched by the time we negotiate peace with france.
    -I will Attack greece right now for the luxuries they have. I will at least take Corinth for the silks, after that i may also go for the incense near sparta, but with their strong defenders, i am not really counting on that.
    This will give us GA within a few turns and the luxury will also help us a lot.

    So i start moving 4 legions and an archer from lugdunum towards Corinth, i move trough the forests since the units only have 1 move anyway, and the forests provides them defence bonus. I make sure i have no units inside their territory before declaring war, our reputation must remain spotless.

    Most other units are moving northwards to attack france. They will take between 6 and 9 turns to reach the target cities. Only a few are left behind for defence (we can upgrade warriors in emergency)

    I also disband a few warriors, they provide little power and we simply dont have the gold to pay their upkeep. Since i don't want our opponents to think we are weak, i won't disband too many of them though. I keep some so we can upgrade them in case of emergency.



    Now is time to change the city productions.

    I notice another small mistake now i want to point out. This is really a detail, but every detail does count. Ravenna is building a legion while it does not have a barracks. Hispalis is building a catapult while it DOES have a barracks. Obviously, this is the wrong way around since catapults do not benefit from being produced with a barracks. We are now building a weak legion, and the barracks is being wasted while building a catapult. Here it also counts, having things but not using them is wasting resources. It is best to dedicate each of your cities task, usually the tasks are settler/worker factory, unit factory and non hitpoints unit factory for me. You could have science or culture cities, but that does not fit in my play style, on high difficulties, science is hopeless and culture i simply don't like (besides that it is also hopeless trying to beat an AI on culture on higher difficulties).

    Ok, on with the productions: I set some cities with good surplus that do not yet have more than 10 shields ready to workers, 6 workers are now in production (deu in 1,1,1,2,4,10 turns), 3 marketplaces, 1 harbor, and a bunch of granaries.

    This was preturns, i will see if i should move some laborers to work other tiles, but now i will first make myself something to eat :D

    Before going to make food, i decided to take a little look at where the wonders are located. I just notice the Library is owned by the french and is located in Paris. So learn from my mistakes now, and be sure to look at where the wonders are before making plans :) no need to make pretty deals in peace nogatiations, we will have the GL anyway ! So the plans are not changed by that, i wanted to take paris anyway. I will however now set science to 0 and have some cash coming in. This is nice :D
     
  17. waitingtoderail

    waitingtoderail Chieftain

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    As far as the entertainers, several cities broke out in riots even at 30% on the slider. That is why I created them. Perhaps you could tell me what it was I should have done there.
     
  18. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    hmm, when did we turn into republic?
    Was that still in anarchy?
    In anarchy it is indeed normal you need clowns, so i guess we turned republic your last turn and when you checked happiness the turn before ?
     
  19. waitingtoderail

    waitingtoderail Chieftain

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    You are exactly right - actually, we were in anarchy for 3 turns and the cities began rioting right away. But yes, I had just gone republic on my last turn. As far as what cities are creating what, I knew that barracks helped units who were injured, but I didn't realize they had any effect while they were being created. So that's my bad. I have to be honest, I don't always understand what it is I'm looking for when I check cities, I now have a better idea.
     
  20. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Ok:

    For the anarchy, anarchy simply is a "governement" with very some very bad things, your happiness will drop significantly when you are in anarchy.
    When you revolt, you go into anarchy, at that moment your happiness drops significantly and you have to make a choise, either get clowns to stop the cities from rioting and lose food, sometimes even have people starve, or let them riot and risk losing city improvements.
    If you can keep your city happy without starvation, that obviously is what you should do. Otherwise, if i have food in store, and can prevent starvation with just 1 turn rioting, i would do that since then there is no risk of losing improvents (only happens with prolonged rioting) If there really is no option to prevent both, it is usually best to save your improvements and have the city starve a little.
    In this case, we have been lucky with a 3 turn anarchy, the clowns in anarchy are good.
    As soon as you get the republic, you regain a normal level of happiness and the first thing to do is get rid of the clowns.

    If you have barracks in a city, every unit produced in that city will from then on be veteran. This increases your strength (and thus your opponents fearing you), your chance to win battles and the amount of elite units you have and thus chances for leaders. Also are veterans much more worthy being upgraded. Once you get used of producing veteran units, you never want to see a regular one again :D

    Deciding what to produce in a city is a rather difficult process. It depends on both your long and short term strategy plans. As i said, it is best to have your cities be dedicated to a goal, not just build everything in them. Make sure you have the optimum results with as little city improvements as possible.

    When you check what tiles you use for your city and what work your workers do, keep in mind the following things:
    -Growth is important, make sure all your cities keep growing prosperously.
    -Target for a number of shields that can be multiplied to precisely produce what you want to produce. For example, producing anything with a production of 9 shields will almost always mean you are wasting shields. If you build a spearmen for example, it will take 3 turns in which you produce 27 shields = 7 wasted. 10 shields on the other hand means you will never waste any of them (curragh being the only exeption). The same goes for food more or less, 5 surplus is a beatifull number as nothing will be wasted, 4 is so as well if you dont have a granary, but if you do have a granary, 3 or 4 surplus means you will have some food wasted. In early game, food is the most important resource, then shields, then commerce. The exception is that 10th shield, if you need to reduce your food surrplus by 1 to gain that 10th shield, that is definately worth it unless it reduces your surrplus to 0. (never have surpluss 0 unless your city can't grow larger anyway)
     

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