Smackster: I am not sure the turns/dates you have indicated are correct. Tarkeel's DoW on Greece was on his 6th turn 2710BC. Next DoW should happen no later than 20 turns after this if we met another tribe, the 6th turn in my volley. Instead it should have happened when DH was contacted by Babylon on the IBT after my turns = 1725BC. (My last turn 1750BC) The next DoW should happen 20 turns after last deadline = 6th turn in your volley not the first turn...
SGOTM3 Rome - Team Smackster
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
smackster
SGOTM
There is a good chance I counted wrong, but I was counting an IBT declaration as the turn before, player moves first right, so the AI turn is the same turn, which in this case is essentially your last turn when we actually declared war (or rather, we should have).
edit : So the next declaration is actually my turn 10, or the next players turn 0, which is 1500BC. Certainly makes it easier to calculate putting it on the boundary.
edit : So the next declaration is actually my turn 10, or the next players turn 0, which is 1500BC. Certainly makes it easier to calculate putting it on the boundary.
DH's last turn was 1500BC, the save you are to play from and I still believe you are to DoW 20 turns after I was supposed to DoW someone (my 6th turn) had I had contact with a tribe then. That turn was 20 turns after the turn Tarkeel's DoW on Greece (his 6th turn). If this is correct your DoW should be on your 6th turn = 1350BC. That is if Tarkeel did DoW on 2710BC.
However, I agree with you that IBT is really something that happens on the turn you are "leaving" thus Tarkeel's DoW was actually on 2750BC in which case your DoW should be on 1375BC.
However, I agree with you that IBT is really something that happens on the turn you are "leaving" thus Tarkeel's DoW was actually on 2750BC in which case your DoW should be on 1375BC.
smackster
SGOTM
Catapults. I don't get it. I've seen them in action, built many, I know how ineffective they are.
Given a choice, you have 60 shields, what would you build, 2 Legions, 3 spears, or 3 Catapults. Or even 1 Legion, 1 warrior and 1 Catapult.
Everytime I would build 2 Legions, only 2 unit support and much more chance of defeating an enemy.
Given a choice, you have 60 shields, what would you build, 2 Legions, 3 spears, or 3 Catapults. Or even 1 Legion, 1 warrior and 1 Catapult.
Everytime I would build 2 Legions, only 2 unit support and much more chance of defeating an enemy.
I agree, catapults are highly ineffective...
In my tests in average only one out of 3 catapults hits the target..
Plus catapults require and tie up an additional unit or two to safe guard them...
Personally, i don't think whe should have went researching mathematics...
AI will research math much earlier than we do and we could simply buy it really cheap....
It's is also time to start prebuilding GL since we have masonry and we can use palace as a prebuild structure.
EDIT: I am not blaming Deceased Horse for going for Math.... We are still a team and i respect everyones decisions... I know we will win in any case.
In my tests in average only one out of 3 catapults hits the target..
Plus catapults require and tie up an additional unit or two to safe guard them...
Personally, i don't think whe should have went researching mathematics...
AI will research math much earlier than we do and we could simply buy it really cheap....
It's is also time to start prebuilding GL since we have masonry and we can use palace as a prebuild structure.
EDIT: I am not blaming Deceased Horse for going for Math.... We are still a team and i respect everyones decisions... I know we will win in any case.
smackster
SGOTM
Have a read of the description in the maintenance thread again, if you did not already, I think it does not say that.Wotan said:
Because we had no contact for a while, only when we got that Babylon contact and declared war (or not) did the 20 turns start again. It specifically says that if you have no contacts after 20 turns, then you must declare war with the next civ when contact is made, however it then says the next DoW (after that) is after another 20 turns. Therefore in our case, declare on Germany after 20 turns of war on Babylon.
So we get a break for having no contacts for a while.
smackster said:
OK, I have spotted one anomaly in the list above: The line w. Babylon DoW 1750BC, (20 turns to next war - 1500BC) Should be 1250BC! 1750 - 1500BC is only 10 turns!
So DoW Germany when Smackster hands over to Tarkeel. DoW England when Dmanakho -> Wotan and DoW Russia when DH -> Smackster.
DeceasedHorse
Prince
Crap. Sorry about all that; I can't believe I forgot to declare war on Hammurabi! 
RE: Catapults-Frankly, they are the key to AW, which is what we are effectively in at the moment. Cost wise, yes, you could build an archer or a spear for the same amount of shields, but an archer or spear can be lost every time it is employed in combat while a Catapult provides risk-free offensive and defensive support. We simply cannot afford to challenge a civilization with access to a 16-shield pikemen with a straight-up legion attack; we will eventually win because the AI is so bad at city management, but the net shields lost will be much higher than if we have bombardment units supporting us. A Hoplite will have an effective combat value of 4.5 in pretty much all situations that will come up at this point, and costs half as much as our offensive equivlent. Furthermore, catapults built in cities without barracks are no less effective than those built in cities that have them. This is somewhat less of an issue thanks to our half-price barracks, but if given the choice building a regular spear/archer or a catapult, I know which one I'd choose. That being said, I will respect the team's wishes if I am the only one who feels this way. That is why I made sure that Math was not only a key tech in that it opens up catapults, but also that it is our best bet for trading purposes. Most of the other civs that have anything to trade already have writing (and Iron Working, although it is possible that Babylon swapped it around on the IBT), so we should be able to pick it up fairly cheaply. The AI, now that the Oracle has been built and the wonder cascade cut, will either beeline to a government tech or to construction (if it behaves like it does in Conquests). Literature is almost always one of the last techs they go after.
RE: Catapults-Frankly, they are the key to AW, which is what we are effectively in at the moment. Cost wise, yes, you could build an archer or a spear for the same amount of shields, but an archer or spear can be lost every time it is employed in combat while a Catapult provides risk-free offensive and defensive support. We simply cannot afford to challenge a civilization with access to a 16-shield pikemen with a straight-up legion attack; we will eventually win because the AI is so bad at city management, but the net shields lost will be much higher than if we have bombardment units supporting us. A Hoplite will have an effective combat value of 4.5 in pretty much all situations that will come up at this point, and costs half as much as our offensive equivlent. Furthermore, catapults built in cities without barracks are no less effective than those built in cities that have them. This is somewhat less of an issue thanks to our half-price barracks, but if given the choice building a regular spear/archer or a catapult, I know which one I'd choose. That being said, I will respect the team's wishes if I am the only one who feels this way. That is why I made sure that Math was not only a key tech in that it opens up catapults, but also that it is our best bet for trading purposes. Most of the other civs that have anything to trade already have writing (and Iron Working, although it is possible that Babylon swapped it around on the IBT), so we should be able to pick it up fairly cheaply. The AI, now that the Oracle has been built and the wonder cascade cut, will either beeline to a government tech or to construction (if it behaves like it does in Conquests). Literature is almost always one of the last techs they go after.
smackster
SGOTM
Contacts
Contact Greece 2710 BC, war declared 2710BC (20 turns to next war - 1910BC)
No contact by 1910BC, therefore war on next contact
Babylon 1750 BC, war declared 1750BC (20 turns to next war - 1250BC)
Germany 1750 BC, war declaration due 1250BC
England 1750 BC, war declaration due 750BC
Russia 1750 BC, war declaration due 350BC
edit: many times trying to make this legible
edit:edit: Please check my work.
edit:edit:edit, note 50 yrs / turn 4000->2750, 40 yrs / turn 2750->1750 25 yrs / turn 1750->750, 20 yrs / turn 350->?
Contact Greece 2710 BC, war declared 2710BC (20 turns to next war - 1910BC)
No contact by 1910BC, therefore war on next contact
Babylon 1750 BC, war declared 1750BC (20 turns to next war - 1250BC)
Germany 1750 BC, war declaration due 1250BC
England 1750 BC, war declaration due 750BC
Russia 1750 BC, war declaration due 350BC
edit: many times trying to make this legible
edit:edit: Please check my work.
edit:edit:edit, note 50 yrs / turn 4000->2750, 40 yrs / turn 2750->1750 25 yrs / turn 1750->750, 20 yrs / turn 350->?
smackster
SGOTM
Well 10 Catapults in a stack joining the attack makes more sense, than one per city for defence. For defence, I think they are a waste. Add a stack to the attack no problem, I would just build horses and legions, and bang heads that way, but I think we should give the Catapults a try. We'll make sure its your turn when they arrive, and they had better do their job, or I'm next to play and they will be terminatedDeceasedHorse said:
DeceasedHorse said:
I concur with the fact that the catapult is the best military unit to build in a city without barracks..
I don't agree on tech part... I believe that by the time we research math AI will already have it with no trade possibilities for us. I will be very happy to admit that i was wrong in my predictions.
smackster
SGOTM
Usually with so many AI there will be a few of them who lag behind on Tech. Emperor level is a lot easier when there are many AI. We just have to hope we are lucky and that we can play the tech broker a little, before we are at war with everyone.
smackster
SGOTM
SGOTM3 1500BC
T0 1500BC
Declare war on Babylon, find that we have contact with France and America, we really need to record the year of our contacts? DeseasedHorse I cant see note of the contacts in your log, and I need to know the order??????????????
Edit:I made contact, how stupid, but that is what I wanted as I wanted to trade with all
We have contacts with 7 civs now. Of most interest is that Map Making in play, as I described before that is the best round to catch up with the AI, well its best done the turn it happens, but still ok now. Problem is we don't even have writing. Half the civs have MM, if we can get MM then we have a shot at tech parity in one turn. But I think we might just be too far behind. Switch slider to 9.0.1, 0% on maths, sorry has to be done, we need these trades, and the AI will probably get it before us, we should get it very cheap then.
Writing for 5GPT, 23 Gold and World Map from England
Can't get Map Making.
Philosophy from Russia for 6GPT and WM.
Sell WM to England for Territory Map + 8 Gold
Philosophy swap for Myst from America (whoops I meant to get HBR, but)
Philosophy swap for HBR from Germany
We are now behind just MM, if we could have got that, we'd have got all their cash too. We only have one Territory Map. Time to send a warrior south to increase our Map value.
Switch Antium to Settler, as it is our Settler factory, and can now grow in 2. Not sure if it needs MM, we'll see, I had to switch one unit tile to get +5fpt.
We are currently irrigating the game slot that needs to be mined, to get a 4 turn settler factory, this will just waste a food point, but maybe not......I see you guys spot my mistakes and now are too embarrassed to point them out, see later.
IBT
T1 1475BC
Veii worker->archer
Unit support is +2, so we need to build more cities to support them. Our Gold is +2, as we lost some from Veii. However, Veii's food box is nearly full already, I love that Pyramid Granary, our score will fly.
Decide to start roading the iron, there will be no mass upgrades we wont have any cash anyway.
Neopolis is settled in our northern square, ready to pump workers. Our unit support is now 13/16 so we are back to +4 GPT.
Still can't get MM, but we get some more gold for our map, that's not banned is it. The old 1 Gold per turn for your map game.
T2 1450BC
Elite archer arrives on mountain outside Veii, will attack with vet next turn, but in case of the worst, want to clean up with elite.
IBT Greece come begging for peace, we don't even acknowledge them
The Greek archer scared by our elite archer and moves onto the plain, another regular archer appears in the distance
T3 1425BC
Vet archer kills Greek vet archer
IBT Greek archer moves onto moutain, don't worry our fortified spear is there.
T4 1400BC
Antium Settler->Settler hmmmmm
Veii Archer->Archer in 3, but gross waste of shields, producing 8 per turn right now.
Worker complete irrigation on game. Actually we could not get the 4 turn settler factory at size 4 with that game mined, this did occur to me, we lose a shield to corruption. So Actually irrigating the game is good, we need to mine one more BG, and then perform gross manipulation to get the 4 turn factory, and lend the irrigated game to another city, twice per cycle, teee heee hooo harrr harrr. I hope you all enjoy this.
Settler moves to spot 2 on Wotan's map
[ B]IBT[/B] Greek archer moves off moutain onto grassland, another archer appears north, next to hill
T5 1375BC
Elite* archer kills greek archer (1/5)
Spearman from Veii moves to hill to block off greek archer, our other archer joins him
As Antium can now feed off two irrigated Game, it actually need them both one turn, and then only one second turn. So every other turn Either Cumae or Veii can use one of the game, and get a food boost. This turn Antium can grow one turn quicker using that game, so I do it.
IBT Greek archer attacks our spearman on a hill, and we survive (2/4)
T6 1350BC
Neopolis warrior->worker, warrior goes north to see what is up there, certainly want to know where Babylon are
Bit concerned about Neopolis isolation, start to road up to it.
France will now offer us MM, but for everything we have, all gold, all GPT, can't do that.
Decide to sneak a settler out of Veii, we have 15/20 units, its a risk if Babylon come calling with lots of their 2/2 archers, but I'll take it. Slider to
5.3.2, we now have enough commerce to start on Maths again, get it in 19, yes I know it was 11 when I got here. The AI tech pace seems to be slow for some reason. Nothing researched in all this time, I did notice that Germany had a worker available for three turns, I surmise they were at war, that is good.
IBT All quiet, too quiet, where is Bablyon
T7 1325BC
Cumae Spearman->warrior (Iron next turn)
Warrior to the north scouting, sees a pink border, its France!!!!!!!!!!!, not Babylon
Its that second turn manipulation at Antium again, so I lend the game to Veii this time and Veii can grow one turn earlier, you just have to look at Antium every turn, make sure its not wasting anything and if it is lend it to one of the others.
Spearman steps one closer on mountain towards Thermopylae, so that we can see them coming better. Archer goes with him
IBT Spoke too soon, Babylon Bowman appears to the north
T8 1300BC
Veii Settler-> wait for it, wait for it, Legionary (in 5)
Troops from Veii can get to Neapolis before the Bowman, there is a spear there, and a warrior scouting, but even if we had archers, we need to draw them to us, as hopefully get them to attack our spear on the hill fortified.
England have Code of Laws, but we can't get it for anything.
IBT Babylon Bowman moves nearer, annoying as we might start their GA
T9 1275BC
Antium Settler->Settler
That settler moves to the position exactly RCP due south of Veii (two diagonal squares)
3 Civs appear with Maths, we get it from France for 63 Gold, 1GPT, and WM. We sell it to Germany for 60 Gold, and from England for 30 gold.
We start work on Literature, 34 turns at -2GPT. We have 92 Gold in the bank.
T10 1250BC
The Babylon Bowman comes next to our spear, we can fortify the spear and move the warrior on it, I've left the game with the warrior active, and you need to forify the spear. A damaged spear and an archer due in Neapolis next turn. Neapolis can produce a worker next turn or be switched to warrior if you don't like the defence, I think it is enough.
Settler to the SW is in place to settle next turn, the workers should road through the horse, to the Condimentum.
The other settler needs to go one more SE onto the hill due south of Veii.
Antium food needs manipulation next turn
Score 183
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Smackster_SG003_BC1250_01.SAV
This turn we declare war on Germany. I have not done it yet. Go to the dip screen, see if they have anything, don't get into any GPT deals and declare on the way out.
T0 1500BC
Declare war on Babylon, find that we have contact with France and America, we really need to record the year of our contacts? DeseasedHorse I cant see note of the contacts in your log, and I need to know the order??????????????
Edit:I made contact, how stupid, but that is what I wanted as I wanted to trade with all
We have contacts with 7 civs now. Of most interest is that Map Making in play, as I described before that is the best round to catch up with the AI, well its best done the turn it happens, but still ok now. Problem is we don't even have writing. Half the civs have MM, if we can get MM then we have a shot at tech parity in one turn. But I think we might just be too far behind. Switch slider to 9.0.1, 0% on maths, sorry has to be done, we need these trades, and the AI will probably get it before us, we should get it very cheap then.
Writing for 5GPT, 23 Gold and World Map from England
Can't get Map Making.
Philosophy from Russia for 6GPT and WM.
Sell WM to England for Territory Map + 8 Gold
Philosophy swap for Myst from America (whoops I meant to get HBR, but)
Philosophy swap for HBR from Germany
We are now behind just MM, if we could have got that, we'd have got all their cash too. We only have one Territory Map. Time to send a warrior south to increase our Map value.
Switch Antium to Settler, as it is our Settler factory, and can now grow in 2. Not sure if it needs MM, we'll see, I had to switch one unit tile to get +5fpt.
We are currently irrigating the game slot that needs to be mined, to get a 4 turn settler factory, this will just waste a food point, but maybe not......I see you guys spot my mistakes and now are too embarrassed to point them out, see later.
IBT
T1 1475BC
Veii worker->archer
Unit support is +2, so we need to build more cities to support them. Our Gold is +2, as we lost some from Veii. However, Veii's food box is nearly full already, I love that Pyramid Granary, our score will fly.
Decide to start roading the iron, there will be no mass upgrades we wont have any cash anyway.
Neopolis is settled in our northern square, ready to pump workers. Our unit support is now 13/16 so we are back to +4 GPT.
Still can't get MM, but we get some more gold for our map, that's not banned is it. The old 1 Gold per turn for your map game.
T2 1450BC
Elite archer arrives on mountain outside Veii, will attack with vet next turn, but in case of the worst, want to clean up with elite.
IBT Greece come begging for peace, we don't even acknowledge them
The Greek archer scared by our elite archer and moves onto the plain, another regular archer appears in the distance
T3 1425BC
Vet archer kills Greek vet archer
IBT Greek archer moves onto moutain, don't worry our fortified spear is there.
T4 1400BC
Antium Settler->Settler hmmmmm
Veii Archer->Archer in 3, but gross waste of shields, producing 8 per turn right now.
Worker complete irrigation on game. Actually we could not get the 4 turn settler factory at size 4 with that game mined, this did occur to me, we lose a shield to corruption. So Actually irrigating the game is good, we need to mine one more BG, and then perform gross manipulation to get the 4 turn factory, and lend the irrigated game to another city, twice per cycle, teee heee hooo harrr harrr. I hope you all enjoy this.
Settler moves to spot 2 on Wotan's map
[ B]IBT[/B] Greek archer moves off moutain onto grassland, another archer appears north, next to hill
T5 1375BC
Elite* archer kills greek archer (1/5)
Spearman from Veii moves to hill to block off greek archer, our other archer joins him
As Antium can now feed off two irrigated Game, it actually need them both one turn, and then only one second turn. So every other turn Either Cumae or Veii can use one of the game, and get a food boost. This turn Antium can grow one turn quicker using that game, so I do it.
IBT Greek archer attacks our spearman on a hill, and we survive (2/4)
T6 1350BC
Neopolis warrior->worker, warrior goes north to see what is up there, certainly want to know where Babylon are
Bit concerned about Neopolis isolation, start to road up to it.
France will now offer us MM, but for everything we have, all gold, all GPT, can't do that.
Decide to sneak a settler out of Veii, we have 15/20 units, its a risk if Babylon come calling with lots of their 2/2 archers, but I'll take it. Slider to
5.3.2, we now have enough commerce to start on Maths again, get it in 19, yes I know it was 11 when I got here. The AI tech pace seems to be slow for some reason. Nothing researched in all this time, I did notice that Germany had a worker available for three turns, I surmise they were at war, that is good.
IBT All quiet, too quiet, where is Bablyon
T7 1325BC
Cumae Spearman->warrior (Iron next turn)
Warrior to the north scouting, sees a pink border, its France!!!!!!!!!!!, not Babylon
Its that second turn manipulation at Antium again, so I lend the game to Veii this time and Veii can grow one turn earlier, you just have to look at Antium every turn, make sure its not wasting anything and if it is lend it to one of the others.
Spearman steps one closer on mountain towards Thermopylae, so that we can see them coming better. Archer goes with him
IBT Spoke too soon, Babylon Bowman appears to the north
T8 1300BC
Veii Settler-> wait for it, wait for it, Legionary (in 5)
Troops from Veii can get to Neapolis before the Bowman, there is a spear there, and a warrior scouting, but even if we had archers, we need to draw them to us, as hopefully get them to attack our spear on the hill fortified.
England have Code of Laws, but we can't get it for anything.
IBT Babylon Bowman moves nearer, annoying as we might start their GA
T9 1275BC
Antium Settler->Settler
That settler moves to the position exactly RCP due south of Veii (two diagonal squares)
3 Civs appear with Maths, we get it from France for 63 Gold, 1GPT, and WM. We sell it to Germany for 60 Gold, and from England for 30 gold.
We start work on Literature, 34 turns at -2GPT. We have 92 Gold in the bank.
T10 1250BC
The Babylon Bowman comes next to our spear, we can fortify the spear and move the warrior on it, I've left the game with the warrior active, and you need to forify the spear. A damaged spear and an archer due in Neapolis next turn. Neapolis can produce a worker next turn or be switched to warrior if you don't like the defence, I think it is enough.
Settler to the SW is in place to settle next turn, the workers should road through the horse, to the Condimentum.
The other settler needs to go one more SE onto the hill due south of Veii.
Antium food needs manipulation next turn
Score 183
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Smackster_SG003_BC1250_01.SAV
This turn we declare war on Germany. I have not done it yet. Go to the dip screen, see if they have anything, don't get into any GPT deals and declare on the way out.
smackster
SGOTM
You were partly right, they would have got it first, but when they got it we bought it and sold it, and got all our money backdmanakho said:
smackster
SGOTM
Contacts
Declare war with Germany this turn
Do not get into per turn deals with England, they are next
Contact Greece 2710 BC, war declared 2710BC
No contact by 1910BC, therefore war on next contact
Babylon 1750 BC, war declared 1750BC
Germany 1750 BC, war declared 1250BC
England 1750 BC, war declaration due 750BC
Russia 1750 BC, war declaration due 350BC
America 1500BC, war declaration due 150BC
France 1500BC, war declaration due 50AD
Note 50 yrs / turn 4000->2750, 40 yrs / turn 2750->1750 25 yrs / turn 1750->750, 20 yrs / turn 350BC->250AD, 10 yrs / turn 250AD->?
Declare war with Germany this turn
Do not get into per turn deals with England, they are next
Contact Greece 2710 BC, war declared 2710BC
No contact by 1910BC, therefore war on next contact
Babylon 1750 BC, war declared 1750BC
Germany 1750 BC, war declared 1250BC
England 1750 BC, war declaration due 750BC
Russia 1750 BC, war declaration due 350BC
America 1500BC, war declaration due 150BC
France 1500BC, war declaration due 50AD
Note 50 yrs / turn 4000->2750, 40 yrs / turn 2750->1750 25 yrs / turn 1750->750, 20 yrs / turn 350BC->250AD, 10 yrs / turn 250AD->?
smackster
SGOTM
The Roster
smackster (just played)
Tarkeel (playing)
dmanahko (next up)
Wotan
DeceasedHorse
smackster (just played)
Tarkeel (playing)
dmanahko (next up)
Wotan
DeceasedHorse
First of all, well played Smackster!
@Smackster: France and America was not contacted only "discovered" before your turns. In DH writeup he stated that when Babylon contacted him he contacted Germany, England and Russia. Never France and America first contact with them was when you contacted them and in that order.
A few comments re. city placement: (See map below) Settler at 1A/1B should go to either of these instead of settling in place. Prefer starting with 1A and settle 1B later. Two things gained from this. 1. We have a coastal city with full use of water after harbour is built. 2. We can get two cities in the area, (both coastal).
I have also added a number of other locations to the map.
@Smackster: France and America was not contacted only "discovered" before your turns. In DH writeup he stated that when Babylon contacted him he contacted Germany, England and Russia. Never France and America first contact with them was when you contacted them and in that order.
A few comments re. city placement: (See map below) Settler at 1A/1B should go to either of these instead of settling in place. Prefer starting with 1A and settle 1B later. Two things gained from this. 1. We have a coastal city with full use of water after harbour is built. 2. We can get two cities in the area, (both coastal).
I have also added a number of other locations to the map.
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