SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[fbouthil]

I do not know if it is too late for Zakharov to read this before he plays, but it is probably evident that in 6t, when we learn const, we should have almost 200sh in the palace prebuild and since we are now technologically advanced, it means we have a good chance of getting TGWall!

All right! I think this game is going very well!

 

[Zakharov]

I do not know if it is too late for Zakharov to read this before he plays, but it is probably evident that in 6t, when we learn const, we should have almost 200sh in the palace prebuild and since we are now technologically advanced, it means we have a good chance of getting TGWall!

All right! I think this game is going very well!

You must have read my mind. I have played, we have the Great Wall. Turnlog in about an hour (when I finish writing it).

 

[Zakharov]

350BC(0)- Checked a few things to familiarise myself.

IBT- Roman settler pair boards a galley, heading for the grassland area N of Utica.

330BC(1)- Worker joined to Utica. Not much else.

310BC(2)- Our galley discovers blue borders.

IBT- A barb horseman appears to the E of Hippo.

290BC(3)- The blue civ is Germany. We are equal except they do not have republic. They have only 69g.
Warrior disbanded to cut costs.

IBT- Persia declared war on the Indians!
Roman troops moving along their border.

270BC(4)- NuMerc kills barb horseman.
Production in Theveste and LMOZ1 switched to catapults because of Roman troop movement.

IBT- Construction complete. Currency in 5 at 80% (-53gpt).

250BC(5)- Switching Palace to Colosseum will waste 56 shields, so I switch to the Great Wall in 2.
Ivory colony founded in tundra using the Roman slave.
Two workers joined to LMOZ1.
Our galleys spot Orange borders and a Greek(green) galley. The Greeks have 27g and lack Construction and the Republic.

I check the science advisor. We are now technologically advanced!

IBT- Barb galley attacks Roman settler galley, Roman galley wins but is damaged.

230BC(6)- The orange civ are the Ottomans. Greek borders are spotted.
Workers build a road S of Theveste. A same turn attack on Pompeii is now possible.
The Ottomans have currency and need 5 of our techs, so I trade with them. I get Currency + 52g for MM, Phil, CoL and Lit. They only have 3 cities, so they will soon be behind again. I made sure not to trade Construction as we have a monopoly on this tech.
Researching Polytheism in 4 at 70% (-42gpt).

IBT- The Roman settler galley is heading back as it is damaged. Dumb AI!!!
A Roman settler pair enters our territory so I tell it to withdraw.
Utica builds the 'Great Wall of Carthage'. Colosseum in 6.

As this game is based on GOTM28, we have some C3C style rules. We now have walls in every city.

210BC(7)- NuMerc disperses a Jin encampment and is promoted to ELITE [dance]
Galley heading E discovers land. I think 3 galleys is enough, so I switch production in Hippo to a barracks in 2. This will help to support the war effort, plus it will be useful if Rome decides to settle N and E of Hippo.

IBT- Romans move away from the border, but the settler pair has ignored my warning and moved further into our territory.

190BC(8)- I move some troops, then tell the Roman settler pair to get out of my territory.
Rome declares war!
I unleash our new catapults on the archer, pounding it down to 1hp. An elite NuMercs attacks. It kills the archer without a scratch (5/5) but produces no leader. The Roman settler is split into 2 and bound into slavery.

IBT- The Romans move some troops towards us up the right flank.

170BC(9)- I move some NuMercs into the mountains to head off the Roman push through the mountains. If they make it to the road, we can move catapults into position.

IBT- We discover Polytheism and enter the Middle Ages.

150BC(10)- Our galley spots a lilac border.

Score: Firaxis - 271, Jason - 359.

Notes:
There are 3 unmet civs - Babylon, Celts and the Vikings.

There are workers in LMOZ1 and in Utica. They should be joined next turn.

Leave the 2 shield tile in Carthage open, the catapult will then be completed next turn as it grows.

The warrior to the W and the NuMerc to the E were placed to push back the fog in order to prevent a barb uprising when we moved to the middle ages.

We have 2 warriors left. They should be disbanded as they are costing 4gpt in support. I would rather spend that on quality units like NuMercs.

The Romans still have no Legions.

The Roman push through the mountains has left Pompeii with no reinforcements. We have 4 catapults, 3 archers and 2 NuMercs within striking distance.

The elite NuMerc E of Hippo is heading S to the Roman border.

Utica will build a Colosseum in 3 turns exactly (60sh @ 20sh/turn).

We are currently paying 48gpt in army support costs.

Research:
I have left the save on Monotheism at 10% (40 turns), so we can have a team discussion on what to get next.
10% research gives +9gpt, 20% breaks even. Any higher and we are running a large deficit for 20+ turns.
We could get Monarchy (Hanging Gardens) in 10 turns at 50% at -30gpt.

We also have the option of shutting off research and letting the GLib do its job, though this will leave Utica with nothing to build. I think we should get Monarchy in 10, with Utica building a Palace prebuild (after the Colosseum), then go at 10% for a MA tech.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

Here is the save:
150BC SAVE

Here is our empire in 150BC:

 

[MOTH]

Good turn Zakarov. We are just going to need to clean the Romans off our continent as it seems they do not want peace.

A couple thoughts:
1. We should switch Hippo to a Aquaduct soon. It will be size 6 before we know it.
2. We should keep whatever slaves we get as they are free upkeep.
3. We should consider gifting Persia and Greeks and other scientific civs into middle ages to try and trade for their free techs (or if we get lucky and they both get the same tech we get it through GL).
4. I think we should go for Monarchy in 20 turns or something like that.

 

[Zakharov]

2. We should keep whatever slaves we get as they are free upkeep.

In most cases I agree with you, but when performing an action that consumes the worker (colony, outpost, airfield etc.) it is more effective to use a slave. We are industrial, so slaves are 3x slower than native workers, but a consuming task is the same for natives and slaves. Also, the native workers can later be joined to cities, which I don't like doing with slaves.

 

[fbouthil]

I am a bit surprised about the high cost of units, but I guess this is normal in a 5CC game.

My thoughts:

• Utica: I can short-rush the colloseum, using a market, for 160g (-warrior disband) to finish it in 1t.
• After that, it can prebuild a palace for 15t, so we can research Mon at 40% in 13t, with -19gpt (more or less with new units & warrior disband & joining workers). Of course, unless we get the help of TGLib, we will have nothing to build after HG... At that time, I guess we could wait until we have almost 160sh for a cathedral in a palace prebuild before we have to gift the sci civ into MA. Note that Germany & Ottomans will get to the MA by themselves soon.
• We have 4 catapult, 3 archers & 2 NuMercs ready to attack Pompeii next turn. To do that, we have to move the catapults one tile S of Theveste. if the 3 archers & 1 spear roman stack moves W, then it could attack the catapult stack on favorable grounds. I think I should move the fortified NuMerc N on turn 0, in hope the romans will follow so I make the Pompeii attack. Should I wait until I got rid of those archers before I attack Pompeii?
• I liked the NuMerc-archer pillage team of the previous war. Do you think I should try to go pillage Rome's iron with a similar team again? IMHO, there is a high chance that we will see legions before the end of this war, so it may be futile. On the other hand, it would help a lot if we could prevent confronting too much legions.
• As MOTH suggested, Hippo will need an aqueduct within 21t to prevent losing some growth. It is going to take a little bit less than 14t to build it, so we can build units for at least 7t before starting a aqueduct.
• We are about to meet Scandinavia to the E.
• I think I can drop lux to 10% after the colosseum is finished. It would really help lowering our gpt losses.
• Besides that, I will continue building NuMercs & catapults in hope one of the following players have enough strength to attack Rome. I really do not think I have enough units to attack Rome in my 10t.

 

[fbouthil]

Can I hold on to the game for 2 days this time? I really want to play this slowly because it looks like it could be a critical turn. I will probably finish it tonight, but I know I sometimes play very slowly, especially in SG, so I am asking just in case.

BTW, keep the suggestions coming! I need all the help I can get.

 

[Bede]

Take what time is needed as you have at least 12 hours in hand.

 

[Zakharov]

I am a bit surprised about the high cost of units, but I guess this is normal in a 5CC game.

This is only partly because we are playing a 5CC. The main reason for the high unit costs is because the rules have been modified to more closely represent C3Conquests. This game is based on GOTM28, when the GOTM staff were trying to make the transition from classic civ to . Of course we now know they decided to make two separate GOTMs, with the classic one reverting back to the original rules.

So, the reason we have the high unit costs is because in , the Republic supports 1/3/4 free units then 2gpt for every unit after that. In there is no free support and all units cost 1gpt.

We are supporting 33 units currently. We have two cities and three towns. That equals 9 free units, with 24 supported at 48gpt. With normal rules, we would only be paying 33gpt.

Check this page for the rule changes to this game:
Rule changes

This is also why our Great Wall has put walls in every city.

 

[Zakharov]

We have 4 catapult, 3 archers & 2 NuMercs ready to attack Pompeii next turn. To do that, we have to move the catapults one tile S of Theveste. if the 3 archers & 1 spear roman stack moves W, then it could attack the catapult stack on favorable grounds. I think I should move the fortified NuMerc N on turn 0, in hope the romans will follow so I make the Pompeii attack. Should I wait until I got rid of those archers before I attack Pompeii?

All of the units in Theveste can move S and attack Pompeii on the same turn, as I have built a road in that square. We only need to worry about that stack if they move W before the next turn. If they move NE (or attack us), then our catapults can move out, attack, then move back the next turn before that stack can reach them.

You could also move a NuMerc from Theveste into the mountains W of the stack to block the path. I would rather the NuMercs hold that line in the mountains, as they have a defense value of 6 (6.75 if fortified).

 

[TimBentley]

Go ahead and short-rush the colosseum and research monarchy as fast as is necessary. I don't think we need to gift the scientific civs to the Middle Ages until the Hanging Gardens are complete.

Attack Pompeii and pillage the iron if you can.

Actually, lux can be lowered to 10% now, I believe.

It looks like we are the only ones in the Middle Ages (I doubt Babylon is the only other one), so still be watchful for barbarian uprisings.

Take the time necessary to play well.

 

[fbouthil]

@Zakharov: I already knew the rules were changed for unit costs to be closer to C3C rules. I actually play more C3C games than vanilla version games.

Considering we have TGWall which doubles the effect of walls, Maybe I should keep Theveste at size 6 for the time of this war, especially if legions appear.

@TimBentley: You are right, I will lower lux to 10%, But may have to raise it back to 20% next turn because of the workers that join Utica & Zak#1. Is there anything special I have to do against barb uprising except keeping the 2 NuMercs & 1 warrior near unsettled grounds?

@Zakharov: I will try to keep the NuMerc mountain line of defense. I really do not believe they will get attacked at Civ3Calculator says a regular archer would, on average only remove 1hp of an unfortified NuMerc on a mountain. Therefore, their only logical move is W, but I may be wrong about this.

I will play after supper.

 

[fbouthil]

150BC (preturn)
Disband warrior & short rush colosseum for 152g
lux to 10%, research to 40% for monarchy in 13t, -8gpt.
Move the NuMerc NW. If Rome wants to go through, it will have to go on plain or grassland where we can pick them off.

IBT
As planned, roman troops are heading toward the plain.

130BC (1)
Bombardment on Pompeii: 0/4. Attack on Pompeii postponed.
Joined 2 workers to cities. I thought it would force a lux increase but it looks ok.

IBT
A big pile of romans goes on the lamb plains as planned.
We meet the Scandinavian, down 4 techs and have 5 cities, maybe they are playing 5CC!

110BC (2)
Bombardment of the romans: 3/4
Kill 5 romans losing an archer & a NuMerc.

IBT
India & Persia make peace.

90BC (3)
Bombardment of archers on M: 2/4

70BC (4)
Galley sees a dark green border.
Bombardment on Pompeii: 1/4, wait for now as I will have 1 more archer next turn and a NuMerc will heal 1hp.
Research dropped to 30%, Mon in 10t, +3gpt. Palace prebuild finishes in 12t.

IBT - spear goes out of Pompeii going E.

50BC (5)
Meet Celts, down 6 techs and have 4 cities.
Bombardment on Pompeii: 2/5 -> the only spear is red-lined!
Attack on Pompeii: lose 2 archers , but destroy Pompeii with the 3rd.
Make an archer-NuMerc pillage team going for the iron.

30BC (6) - zzz

IBT
4 roman archers goes on sleep plain, 3 archers & 2 spears 1 tile S.

10BC (7)
Bombardment of archers: 4/5
Kill the 4 archers and ...

[dance][dance]

Considering I do not see how another civ could beat us to HG and we seem to be in a good position to get SC later (after a cathedral), I make a NuMerc army with it so we can build the heroic epic. Maybe I should discuss this with the team, but I really do not see any better alternative.
Pillage team goes next to Rome. There is a legionary protecting Rome.

IBT
Rome wants peace and would be willing to give Hispalis for it: No way!
3 Roman archers & 2 spears move next to Theveste.
An indian galley appears on the W coast.

10AD (8)
Bombardment of troops next to Theveste: 4/5
Pillage team on Iron.

IBT
3 roman archers move on grass next to Theveste.
Zak#1 riots. I do not know why, but CrpMapStat did not popup last turn.
A roman galley move on the E coast.

30AD (9)
CrpMapStat now popup telling me Zak#1 is unhappy (Wow! That was useful!): Lux to 20%, now -11gpt.
Bombardment of archers: 4/4; all red-lined.
Kill those 3 archers.
I did not keep enough units to protect Utica & Carthage so I rush an archer because of the roman galley.
Pillage iron.

IBT - Roman archer attacks wounded NuMerc on H and fail. NuMerc promoted to elite.

50AD (10)
NuMerc army kills spear. Put the Heroic Epic in Utica build queue.

I must admit I did not do a very good job with the galleys. Sorry, but I am not used to differential movement.

Considering there are very few roman troops near our border, it may be a good time to go against Rome. If the next player decides it is so, move the 6 catapults in Theveste. N.B.: Our military is now strong compared to Rome!

Once Mon is researched, we can research mono, but I think we should shut down research all together.

The 2 workers near Hippo were going to join the worker near Carthage to bring irrigation to Hippo. The tile being irrigated can be mined once the plain next to it is irrigated.

We are about to contact Babylon E.

Score: 299
Jason Score: 396

Save

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played

 

[TimBentley]

Got it, but I will not play until tomorrow. Well done on the war. I was thinking an army to enable the Heroic Epic would be a good plan. It is interesting that the Vikings and Celts have built a wonder but are small and backwards.

 

[Zakharov]

Zak#1 riots. I do not know why, but CrpMapStat did not popup last turn.

It is ten turns since Rome declared war on us, so the reverse WW has worn off. CrpMapStat only detects unhappiness when the one turn grace period is allowed (eg. on growth of a city). With no grace period (eg. WW, growth when governor is on), the rioting starts before MapStat detects it.

The reverse WW is also the reason why you were able to drop the luxury slider to 10% on turn 0. In hindsight, I should have dropped it when Rome declared war.

Good turns

I think you made the right choice with the leader, the HE will be worth 2 culture in 1000 years time. If we get another soon, then it will be best to save it for a middle ages wonder. Sun-Tzu's, Leo's and the Sistine Chapel all come along in quick succession, so if we can get one built with a leader, we may have a shot at getting all three wonders.

Edit: Wow! I just checked the save. I thought the HE was worth 1 culture, it is actually worth 4. That's 8 culture/turn in 1000 years. You definitely made the right choice getting that army.

I agree with shutting off research now. If a scientific civ gets to the middle ages alone, we may have to gift the others so that we get a free MA tech or two. We need to slow the tech rate down now so that we have a shot at all three early MA wonders.

Considering we have TGWall which doubles the effect of walls, Maybe I should keep Theveste at size 6 for the time of this war, especially if legions appear.

Does it double the effect of walls? In rules, it places walls in every city instead of doubling their effect. I will post this question in the maintenance thread and see how the rules have been modified. I don't want to stunt the growth of Theveste unnecessarily. The extra 2 free units at size 7 will give us an extra 4gpt.

 

[fbouthil]

@Zakharov: I think you are right about TGWall, it only gives a free wall in every city on the same continent.

@TimBentley: Since the Celts & Vikings have less cities than most, it means they have bigger cities and that should explain in part why they built wonders faster than the other civs.

Rome is size 6. Maybe we should try to attack it before it gets to size 7. Actually, I did not check when Rome got to size 6. Maybe it will grow to size 7 before the 3t it takes to get there. I hope there are no more than 2 legionary in there, otherwise I do not think we can get it soon. If TimBentley thinks he can get it, he should get ready for the palace jump to Zak#1.

Make sure you get some lucky shots from catapults because Civ3Calculators shows that a veteran archer/NuMerc attacking legion fortified in a city would, on average, remove 1hp from the legion before dying. I am not sure that the army would survive an attack on a legion at 3/3!

 

[TimBentley]

I just remembered that the scientific trait is often changed in GOTM to allow for more balance between the two versions. I have asked whether this is the case in this GOTM in the maintenance thread.

If TimBentley thinks he can get it, he should get ready for the palace jump to Zak#1.

So the plan is to capture Rome and abandon Carthage, hmm? I'll keep that in mind.

 

[MOTH]

So the plan is to capture Rome and abandon Carthage, hmm? I'll keep that in mind.

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.

When I was looking at the save last night I was also thinking about a naval blockade. I think we can prevent India & Persia from crossing the straights as it is 6 naval movement points from coast to coast. If we park a galley on one (or two?) of the coasts we could block them from sending settlers to our island. I'm going to take a closer look tonight all around to see if we can pratically blockade our island with only a few galleys.

Tim, how do you calculate the OCN for the map? Was it just an estimate or is there a program. I'm thinking that where our cities are slightly more corrupt than calculated that the OCN might be lower. If so then 8 or 9 cities (1 captured + 2 or 3 built) might get us to the point of building the forbidden palace. Right now we've got HG and HE in the wings, but if tech stays slow then maybe we could get FP in between to help out with corruption all around.

 

[Bede]

Nice play all around gentlemen.

Razing Rome and taking the all the resources and the naval blockade are excellent headwork, MOTH!!

It's been a few turns and I don't think we are going to see many legions from the Romans. Keep the pressure on and they won't be able to build more than one or two.

Slowing the tech pace to the speed at which we can accumulate 300 shields at Utica is probably the best balancing act we can do. Fomenting an overseas war is another way to accomplish our goals of keeping the AI away from the cultural wonders and controlling the overall pace of technology. It looks like we have plenty of bait for "Let's him and you fight" alliances.

 

[TimBentley]

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.

I think you're right that Rome is not in its optimal position. I'll consider taking out Antium as well.

When I was looking at the save last night I was also thinking about a naval blockade. I think we can prevent India & Persia from crossing the straights as it is 6 naval movement points from coast to coast. If we park a galley on one (or two?) of the coasts we could block them from sending settlers to our island. I'm going to take a closer look tonight all around to see if we can pratically blockade our island with only a few galleys.

Sounds like a good idea.

Tim, how do you calculate the OCN for the map? Was it just an estimate or is there a program. I'm thinking that where our cities are slightly more corrupt than calculated that the OCN might be lower. If so then 8 or 9 cities (1 captured + 2 or 3 built) might get us to the point of building the forbidden palace. Right now we've got HG and HE in the wings, but if tech stays slow then maybe we could get FP in between to help out with corruption all around.

Based on the corruption of Utica and LMOZ1 (obtained by CivAssist), I plugged those numbers into the equation formulated by Alexman for corruption. Then it was just two linear equations with two unknowns (OCN and map size). I actually calculated the map size to be 102, and the OCN was probably a couple of decimal points away from 16.

It's been a few turns and I don't think we are going to see many legions from the Romans. Keep the pressure on and they won't be able to build more than one or two.

No legions without any iron.

Slowing the tech pace to the speed at which we can accumulate 300 shields at Utica is probably the best balancing act we can do. Fomenting an overseas war is another way to accomplish our goals of keeping the AI away from the cultural wonders and controlling the overall pace of technology. It looks like we have plenty of bait for "Let's him and you fight" alliances.

Right, I'll lower research on monarchy since Heroic Epic is better for culture/shields and leaders.

By the way, I'll start playing in a few hours.