SGOTM4 - Team Bede

fbouthil said:
You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.
Among the technologies sold to Ottomans (I assume they didn't research either during MOTH's turns) were monarchy and republic.

fbouthil said:
I would have to disagree with building coloseum. We will have access to cathedrals soon. They bring much more happiness, especially because of the SC we are building. But I agree that Hippo does not need a harbor. Theveste does need one to grow faster. Theveste also need a market, but none are vital enough to rush.
Agreed. Monotheism will probably be gained soon.

Regarding wonders, we can go for Sistine Chapel first and reevaluate our goals for the next wonder. I would rather get Copernicus' Observatory or JS Bach's Cathedral.
 
fbouthil said:
You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.

Two of the techs that Otto didn't have were Monarchy and Republic. As soon as an AI gets one of these they will switch to it. They wil go into Anarchy and stop research while the switch happens. Its only a few turns but hopefully it will happen.

As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.
 
As far as wonders go: no civ has a tech to build any wonder other than Sun Tzu at this time. No Civ has Mono yet (gotta be right around the corner). Only 1 other civ has Engineering. So no new Wonder should be available before 20 turns or so. I think this gives us a decent shot at getting Sun Tzu and stopping the Wonder Cascade before the tech game has caught up.

Assuming that I guess right on this:
This will let us maybe rush a Cathedral and start a pre-build for Sistine. The top 5 cities is only showing the 3 wonder cities and 2 capital cities. All of which are pretty small (size 8 max?).

So, Can Utica producing 22 or 23 shields post corruption build two 600 shield wonders before the other Civs can produce 1? Unless we get a leader I doubt it but its possible. At least one if the AIs has to have a city producing 15 spt. We may need to do a little spying after we complete Sistine to determine which of the other Civs are closest and get them into a fight with each other.

I think I had 5 elite wins on my turns, hopefully the next GL is around the corner. If any other team is going for 20K and gets lucky with the leaders then this will give them an edge....
 
MOTH said:
As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.
I did not realize that the Great Lighthouse allows sea trading. Testing it, I confirmed this and also learned that a civilization without a harbor can use someone else's harbor (unless I really screwed something up with the testing).
 
MOTH said:
As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.
Yes, you absolutely correct here. I don't often build the Lighthouse, so I had forgotten about this rule. In that case the harbour in Hippo is a must.

I have just been reading the maintenance thread, in particular the post by klarius about civ trait changes. I have used Ainwood's CivAssist utility and discovered that the Babylonians are not scientific/religious, but are in fact industrious/religious.
 
I guess I must have been brain-dead yesterday when I did not realized we were trading new goverment to Otto.

Interesting this effect of TGLight. The description of the wonder does not show that. Since Persepolis has a harbor, that would permit us to trade for horses. Our military is strong enough right now, so we do not really need any more units for the moment, but that would permit us to build horsemen to upgrade to knights soon.

@MOTH: I missed a couple of elite units when I did my count yesterday. Now I count 4 NuMercs & 1 archer, but one of the NuMercs is far SW and would take too long to wait for it before the assault on Kolhapur.

I hope MOTH is right about the fact that we can finish Sun Tzu before any other wonder are available. Shouldn't we try to start a war on the big continent to slow down research to help that possibility a little? The only 2 big civs are Babylon (9 cities) & Greece (10 cities) and I think they may be big enough to force the Ottoman (4 cities) into giving them Engineering.
 
0-350AD

Not much to do except try and plan an Indian War.

And Gandhi is cooperating by trying to extort Construction but he backs off when told to get lost.

1-360
Manuvering around to blockade Roman settler teams.

Rome gets Construction from somewhere.

2-370
Preparing to abandon Carthage as settler has reached his spot. Sell barracks and rush worker.

Carthage is abandoned and LMOK gets the palace and a marketplace.

3-380
Looks like Rome has sold Construction to the Indians as their treasury has jumped. by ~30g and India can now build things.

Found Leptis Minor at the gates of Lutetia and short rush a library.

Seal the Romans in their little corner of the world.

4-390
Disband a regular archer and cash rush the temple in Leptis Minor.

5-400
I can get horses and furs from Xerxes for Math, Polytheism and 15g. As the added lux would be nice as would fast attack do the deal, turn down the lux slider and will get the cash back next turn.

Forbidden Palace completes in Theveste.

400-440
Move troops into position against the Indians and develop the terrain at Leptis Minor

SGOTM4Bede450IndianExFor.jpg


450
The big news is the Greeks have Monotheism and want most of everything we have for it.

SGOTM4Bede450Monotheism.jpg


The South

SGOTM4Bede450Rome.jpg


Built a small handful of warriors to upgrade to swords for the Roman war and built a couple of horsemen once the deal with X-man has been done.

There is still a single scientist at work in Hippo as I decided to wait until we had the libraries there and in Theveste before turning up the Bunsen burners.

The way the land lays on the other landmasses it didn't seem to make much sense to foment conflict over there. Nobody seems to know anybody. And while the Great Library is still active a reasonable pace on the part of the other guys is not a bad thing. We can take advantage of it while we build cash to make the rush to Sistine's and Bach's. Once Education comes in then will be the time to pull out the war wampum and get some serious catfights going on.

The blockade force in the south has been rotating in and out of the jungle to avoid losses due to disease in the jungles.
 
All right! Looking good. :clap:

A few thoughts:
  • Should we ask Persia to join us in a war against India? :mischief:
  • Leptis Minor is building a granary. If I calculated correctly and labor BG instead of cows to get as much shield as possible, the granary would be finished in 12t and the city would be size 5, growing in 2t. We have 4 workers to join at size 7, which would be 4t later. If we work a cow instead of BG, we can grow every 3t and get to size 7 in 15t. Therefore, I think we should switch production to courthouse.
  • Sun Tzu will be finished in 13t. Only the Ottomans know engineering so I do not think anyone will know invention at that time. The only risk is that the Greeks have a shot at getting theo, but I doubt it because they just got mono. We are in trouble if I am wrong about this and we do not have a GL to rush SC.
  • Keep a good amount in the treasury and an archer in Utica to rush a cathedral in 1t after Sun Tzu.
 
Good points, fbouthil. Greece took 26 turns to research monotheism, and their research capabilities can't have increased so much that they could research a more expensive technology in half the time. Ottomans have had less than 15 turns to research, and have less research capabilities than Greece. Thus, Sun Tzu's Art of War can be built (stopping the cascade).
 
Got it.

Hopefully I can get a leader during my turns. If I do shall I:
a) use it on Sun Tzu's, start a prebuild for the next wonder and hope for another leader, or,
b) save it until Sun Tzu's is complete, then use it when Leo's or SC become available, or,
c) any other suggestions?

This is wishful thinking I know, but it is best to be prepared. :)

Bede said:
The way the land lays on the other landmasses it didn't seem to make much sense to foment conflict over there. Nobody seems to know anybody. And while the Great Library is still active a reasonable pace on the part of the other guys is not a bad thing. We can take advantage of it while we build cash to make the rush to Sistine's and Bach's. Once Education comes in then will be the time to pull out the war wampum and get some serious catfights going on.
I agree that we should leave the other civs as they are until the GLib expires. The tech pace seems to be slow enough as it is without any help from us.

I should get this played tomorrow sometime.
 
Zakharov said:
Got it.

Hopefully I can get a leader during my turns. If I do shall I:
a) use it on Sun Tzu's, start a prebuild for the next wonder and hope for another leader, or,
b) save it until Sun Tzu's is complete, then use it when Leo's or SC become available, or,
c) any other suggestions?

I think we should save it and rush Sistine or Leo's when its available. We shouldn't waste the 300 shields we have in Sun Tzu's.
 
MOTH said:
I think we should save it and rush Sistine or Leo's when its available. We shouldn't waste the 300 shields we have in Sun Tzu's.
I agree. It is unlikely we would be wasting the chance for another leader, as the chance of two leaders would be rather slim. Sistine would be preferable over Leo's, of course.
 
I agree with saving the GL. If we cannot prevent the wonder cascade, then we will rush the available wonder right away. If we can prevent the wonder cascade, then it is entirely different. We will see how much shields we have in the palace prebuild when we get theo to decide if we should build SC ourselves and either rush Leo or save the GL for Bach or we scrap whatever prebuild we have (into a courthouse or a market) and rush SC.

BTW, my test game ended when Rome started invading my territory with 20 knights & 10 MedInf (it had crushed Egypt just before me). :cry: I will have to start another test game if I want to understand how a 20K victory in a 5CC works after the second half of MA.

Therefore, it is a good thing you do not accept every one of my suggestions. Keep criticizing me when I write something stupid. :)
 
I have played my turns and uploaded the save. I have to go out soon so I cannot get the turnlog posted until either late tonight or tomorrow morning. Please peruse the save and see what you think.
Here it is:

550AD SAVE

Score: 409, Jason: 542

A brief summary:

I went to war with India and destroyed the ivory town, then built a new colony. With the blockade they won't be back anytime soon. I made peace before my turns ended.

I am at war with Babylon. They demanded engineering and I told them where to go. :D I signed an alliance with the Celts and Vikings against them to keep that continent busy.

We got Monotheism from the GLib. Utica gets Sun Tzu's in 3. 10 archers are in or nearby to disband-rush a cathedral. Nobody has more techs than us yet.

Oh, by the way: [dance]
 

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Looks good. Since the Vikings and Celts already were at war, that makes it a three-way war. Greece will probably be the primary researcher.

It looks like a war with Rome to remove their encroaching cities will soon be needed. I don't like starting a war when we have a leader waiting in Utica, however.

India has built a harbor, but we don't have a route to Delhi. I guess they haven't connected their cities. :crazyeye:
 
I guess I will wait for the timeline before posting a got it, but here are my thoughts:
  • Sun Tzu will be completed in 3t. A cathedral in 4t from now. A palace prebuild follows due in 18t. Are we confident we can get theology at that time? I could start research on it at 30% to get it in 17t. We could also stay at 0% and reevaluate the situation in 10t.
  • Leptis Minor is producing enough excess food (+10), so I would like to switch the granary to a courthouse as I said before. With that much food, it should be size 11 after my turns, without a granary.
  • Theveste is growing in 20t. Since we have plenty of slaves (and more are coming), I want to join a worker right now.
  • In 4t, Leptis Minor's borders will grow giving us iron to upgrade the 3 warriors. Once that has been done, they will go toward Syracuse and DoW on romans. There is enough troops in Leptis Minor to get Lutetia. Any other targets I should favor? I guess the idea is to get as much elite as possible since we already have a leader. We can try to get more slaves also.
  • The horse deal with Persia ends in 5t. Once Lutetia is out of the way, should I trade wool for horse or fur? Or both with a little money?
  • Should I build a few cathedral to compensate WW?
 
450(0)- Do some MMing to give more food or commerce in some cities, whilst still getting the build done in the same number of turns. eg. In Hippo I moved a hill tile (1/3/2) to a coast tile (2/0/3) with the Library still in 2 turns.
I check CrpMapStat and see that Leptis Minor needs only 1 unit garrison to prevent a flip.

IBT- A barb warrior appears from the eastern gap fog.
Harbour built in Theveste > Marketplace in 6
Ottomans + Babylonians learn Monotheism. The GLib will give it to us next turn, so I switch research to Invention at 0% with 1 scientist in Hippo.

460(1)- Vet horseman attacks barb warrior > 4/4, no promotion.
I declare war on India and move the stack next to Kohalpur.

IBT- We learn Monotheism from the GLib.
LMOZ1 builds horseman > archer in 1 (for rushing the cathedral in Utica)
Hippo builds Library > Courthouse in 7
CrpMapStat says we are joint tech leaders with Greece and the Ottomans.

470(2)- I unleash the catapults on Kohalpur. 1 miss, then 3 hits. They have 2 spears at 2/3 and 1/3.
Our archer attacks with no resistance (5/5) and........

General Mago arises to lead our troops :beer:

I send him back to Utica.
A NuMerc mops up in Kohalpur (5/5) and sacks it for 2g.
I take the town, but there is nothing to sell, so I abandon it.
Our slave worker builds a new ivory colony.
I check the lux effect of the ivory, but we will have to stay at 10% until we build a marketplace in Theveste and a courthouse in Hippo.

Horseman disperses Ainu camp for 25g (no promotion).

IBT- LMOZ1 builds archer > archer in 1, I send him to Utica.
I continue to build a new archer every turn in LMOZ1, so I will not write every single one.

480(3)- Leptis Minor is now producing 10 food per turn. Granary in 15.

IBT- Romans move into our territory! 3 turns left on the peace deal.

490(4)- I order the Romans to withdraw their troops. They agree.
I move some NuMercs out of Leptis Minor to protect the workers from sneak attacks.

IBT- I have to end the turn with a galley in Persian territory. They ask me to withdraw. I apologize to them.
A Roman galley heads N from Pisae.

500(5)- Instead of sending him S, I keep a horseman in Hippo to deal with barbs in the eastern gap. I plan to allow barb camps to form in the fog to give promotion opportunities.

IBT- A Roman settler pair lands next to the wool colony.
Persia and the Celts get Construction, but still lack Currency.

510(6)- Some troop and worker movement.

IBT- Hamurabi of the Babylonians demands Engineering. I laugh in his face, so he declares war.
Romans found Syracuse next to the wool.
Theveste builds Marketplace > Library

520(7)- We don't need the wool just yet, as we can run the lux rate at 10% with just 2 luxuries. I therefore postpone my attack on the Romans.
I complete a road network around Leptis Minor, so I send most of the workers N to Theveste.
I build an embassy with the Celts for 50g.
I get a military alliance with the Celts and Vikings against Babylon. I have to give Monarchy to the Celts, but I get the Vikings to pay us 22g for the alliance! :D
This should keep Babylon busy. :mischief:
Our military advisor tells me there are Sui tribes near Hippo. I send the horse into the fog.

IBT- Hippo builds courthouse > horseman in 2.
Our people expand the palace. I tell them to add a new upper chamber and to plant some trees. :)
Germany has Monotheism.

530(8)- Horse attacks barb camp (3/4)
I decide not to attack Rome during my turns. I want to use the leader first.

IBT- Roman settler pair enters our territory.
I lose a galley in treacherous waters. Sorry guys, I made a wrong move with it.
India will talk. They are in the MA now.

540(9)- Horseman disperses barb camp (3/4). Still no promotion. :(
I make peace with India and get 19g from them.

IBT- I see two Roman settler pairs moving through their territory. The one in our territory heads S, so I let it go.
Hippo builds a horseman > horseman in 2.
The Celts are in the MA. Only the Persians are not.

550(10)- Just some worker moves, not much else.

Firaxis score: 409, Jason score: 542

Notes:
There are 9 archers in Utica and 1 just outside, all for disbanding towards a cathedral. Every archer we can disband will save 28g in rushing costs.

Sun Tzu's in 3. We should get it before the Greeks do. The leader in Utica is ready to rush Leo's or the SC. We should get both if we rush the first and build the second, as the tech pace seems very slow.

The horseman E of Hippo should move in and out of the eastern gap looking for barbs. When he is elite, he should be replaced by another.

Even though Hippo is at size 12, I deliberately gave it +2 food surplus, as this gives an extra 3gpt. The horseman is finished in exactly 2 turns at 15 shields/turn.

The horse outside LMOZ1 is heading S.

The workers around Theveste are irrigating the grassland and mining/roading the mountain. I made a miscalculation here. I moved the worker to irrigate the final mined grassland, but it should stay mined or we will have a 1 food surplus at size 12. The mountain also doesn't need to be worked. Maybe the workers can put a road S of the two sheep in the mountain and hill.

1 native worker could join Theveste to get it to size 12 now.

I brought a galley back to our waters. We have met everyone now and we can't do proper exploring until we can sail the ocean safely. It could be disbanded to save 2gpt.

Our forces are ready to move in on the Romans. I wanted to wait until we had used the leader. If we go to war before this, then use veteran units not elites.

Leptis Minor has a 10 food surplus. It will grow every 2 turns with the granary or every 4 turns without it. The border will expand in 4 turns to grab the iron.

There are 17 turns left of our alliances against Babylon. Should we get Greece involved to slow them down?

We have 1196g in the bank. We are earning 72gpt. The military support cost is 86gpt, though this will drop when we disband the archers in Utica.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

The southern front in 550AD (with possible road marked):
 

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fbouthil said:
I guess I will wait for the timeline before posting a got it, but here are my thoughts:
  • Sun Tzu will be completed in 3t. A cathedral in 4t from now. A palace prebuild follows due in 18t. Are we confident we can get theology at that time? I could start research on it at 30% to get it in 17t. We could also stay at 0% and reevaluate the situation in 10t.
  • Leptis Minor is producing enough excess food (+10), so I would like to switch the granary to a courthouse as I said before. With that much food, it should be size 11 after my turns, without a granary.
  • Theveste is growing in 20t. Since we have plenty of slaves (and more are coming), I want to join a worker right now.
  • In 4t, Leptis Minor's borders will grow giving us iron to upgrade the 3 warriors. Once that has been done, they will go toward Syracuse and DoW on romans. There is enough troops in Leptis Minor to get Lutetia. Any other targets I should favor? I guess the idea is to get as much elite as possible since we already have a leader. We can try to get more slaves also.
  • The horse deal with Persia ends in 5t. Once Lutetia is out of the way, should I trade wool for horse or fur? Or both with a little money?
  • Should I build a few cathedral to compensate WW?
Answering point by point:
1) Greece should learn a new tech soon. I say wait until after the cathedral is built before deciding whether or not to increase research, as we will lose those archers from the military support cost.
2) Size 7 and above, and without a granary, it will grow every 4 turns, so it will be size 9 at the end of your turns. I say build the granary, then sell it at size 12.
3) Agreed, join the worker.
4) Yes, Lutetia and Syracuse are the primary targets. It is probably unnecessary to raze any other towns right now. We want the Romans to have a few towns for effective future leader farming.
5) Do we need horses straight away? We have a few currently and our slow units are already on the front line. It's probably best to get the furs.
6) I was wondering the same thing during my turns. The library in Theveste is probably not needed yet, though the culture would boost the borders earlier. Our war with Babylon will last at least 17 more turns if we don't want to break our alliances, so the WW will kick in 7 turns from now. We have a large enough military. Therefore yes, build some cathedrals. When we get the SC they will keep 6 citizens content. :)
 
Ok. No research, keep the granary, trade for fur and build cathedrals when I can. Got it.

I will play at the end of the afternoon or early tonight.

One last thing: If TGLib gives us theo or inv, then I will start research as it is unlikely TGLib will gives us PP or Gunpowder (education usually comes first).

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.
 
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