SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea

Before we start can we agree a standard turns report format? I don't know what type of thing you guys have used so I copied and ammended this from one of the sg games;

Pre-flight:
MM
rush settler in Cambridge
landings at Mpondo

1050Education from Germany for 60gpt

ITZulu + Ottomans sign peace

1060
Take + raze Mpondo. Found Portsmouth, Berwick. Rush temple in Exeter

1070
rush settlers in Yakaterinaburg. & Ngome

ITNetherlands and Zulu make nice

1080Rush harbor in Koningsberg
Take Ulundi

IBT
end RoP with Monte
Dutch building Magellans

1090
nothing

1100
rush temple in Portsmouth

1110
nothing

IBT
Ulundi deposes

1120
raze Zimbawbe
raze ulundi

IBT
spain + germany make nice
portugal + zulu make nice

1130
raze swazi, found Bath
disband boats in Bath, rush temple
up lux to 30

IBT
riot at Gloucester
Dutch ahead banking and astro

1140
raze ishwandala
peace with zulu for 2 gpt , Zulu Iron and Umfolozi
rush spear in Umfolozi
rush temple in Zulu Iron
rush colesseaums in koningsberg, exeter, portsmouth
lux to zero

1150
blah blah

thoughts: Plans you have, what should be acheieved in the next turns, if you are moving units where you intended them to go etc.

What do you think?

Are we ready to start?
 
I'd also like to see a log with dates. My own format is like this;
3000BC (1)
blah-blah
blah-blah

2950BC (2)
.......
.......

I think it qualifies.

Yes, we are about to start soon; I'm just having a look to SG cultural games, to get any ideas. I think it's worth the time, so we know what we're doing.

At the latest, I'd play tomorrow, if not today(I think it worths the delay).

An idea would be to start a temple/Wonder in our second city asap(another in the capital after a while), but we can't start a temple/Wonder in our second city because we can't build any with our starting techs.

I'l' search to find specific 5CC SG games; do you know any?
 
@King Alexander:
I'm afraid I do not understand your strategy about wonders. Why we should build them in two our cities? I can see just 2 reasons - 100K victory or just not leave them to AI.
First reason: we can not afford it, because we have only 5 cities.
Second reason: I'm afraid that if we will build wonders in 2 sities, remaining 3 would not be enough for building army/buildings/etc.

I think that we should build wonders only in one city going for 20K. All other cities must make army for our military invasions to our neighbors for leader harvesting.

Anyway, this is a far-planning, which will be actual only later in the game.
 
@Sir_Ortin: There are Wonders in the Middle Ages that we would definetly want: we CAN grab almost all the Wonders in that Age: Sistine, Bach's, Copernicus, Smith's, Shakespeer's, and Newton's. We'd need them to keep our people happy, research at a faster rate, increase our income, etc.

In the Industrial Age, again we can grab ALL the Wonders; Universal Suffrage, ToE, and Hoover Dam.

That, of course, requires pre-builds; usually, it's my second-strongest city that grabs them by palace pre-builds; Sistine, Bach, Smiths, as well as the Wonders in the IA.

Why leave to the AI any Wonders??? The problem is in the Ancient Age; what Wonders to leave to the AI?

Oracle(Pyramids), Great Library are the Wonders we want in the Ancient Age; if we also could get the Pyramids, that would be great, but that wouldn't come from the second city.

We must spot a perfect place for our second city, near a river and with lots of grassland, and start a temple right away, while our capital supplies the city with 2 workers to improve the land asap(India has slow workers).
The second city could then begin a granary pre-build, and aim for the Oracle/Pyramids(probably Oracle, so we start our pre-build for the GL sooner).
I think, we can make it to for the second city to also start a pre-build for the GL.

I'd still research Pottery asap; if we can can pop it from a goody hut, or trade for it, we could start minimum on Writing right away, and go for Literature.

Anyway, I wouldn't want us to have war in mind, until the mid of the Industrial age, and after we have rails all over the place.
We don't want any other civ to settle the land and reach Domination, that's why I'd hesitate for a complete war.
If this is a pangea map, I wouldn't have a problem to go for conquest; I did exactly that, in a 5CC I played these days to "practise".

OK, we could re-discuss all these while the game has begun; maybe we'll need to change something on our strategy.

If you all agree, I could start.

P.S.: about Matternich's suggestion to settle on spot, what do you say? Maybe this map is a little "manipulated". I'd go as I planned - crossing the river with the settler, worker to the BG first, to see more of the map.
 
There's a tendency for the starting positions to be good without the need for settler movement because they have had a human hand drawing them, regardless of whether GOTM or an altered SGOTM. The geography hasn't changed and counting tiles to the coast just one square east over the river may possibly cramp an eastern city. Dont hold me to that. I'd hate to be wrong. ;)

Its not a major issue and ultimately the starting player makes the choice as its their turn but it's good that there is team input to draw from in making decisions big or small. After all as team we are competing against the AI. It's where the other 2-5 cities are going thats the prob, because we can be more selective and that makes for a harder choice.

Reading the 5 city article suggests the cities ringing the capital need not be as close as normal so that for the loss of a few corruption tiles (if that) its good to ensure there are no shared tiles. Corruption increases with amount of cities as well as distance from capital. So with only five there's no worry about the ring being one or two squares further away.

Again pottery isnt a bad choice though 8 times out of 10 you can earn it from a trade (and masonry) before the time a prebuilt granary is up- then again there's always the 2 out of 10 chance of not buying/trading for it and then wishing we had researched it to begin with. I'm not too worried as the burden of all these decisions will fall on KingAlex's shoulders- he can take the blame. ;)

Pyramids isn't that great as it puts a granary in all cities of which only 4 will need them (assuming the captial has one before the Pyramids are up.) It's early high culture points would be useful for a cultural victory though so worth considering depending on how things are shaping up. If we decide to rush there's also the possibility of an early leader which could take care of this for us. Any other victory condition wonders arent as important except for GLibrary.

That idea of a coastal city being a wonder city is good as any missed big ones like Pyramids can switch to Collosus/GLighthouse.
 
Matternich said:
There's a tendency for the starting positions to be good without the need for settler movement because they have had a human hand drawing them, regardless of whether GOTM or an altered SGOTM. The geography hasn't changed and counting tiles to the coast just one square east over the river may possibly cramp an eastern city. Dont hold me to that. Id hate to be wrong.
I'd also hate to be wrong, but we can't do much about it, as we don't know where the food bonus is.
Matternich said:
Again pottery isnt a bad choice though 8 times out of 10 you can earn it from a trade (and masonry) before the time a prebuilt granary is up- then again there's always the 2 out of 10 chance of not buying/trading for it and then wishing we had researched it to begin with. I'm not too worried as the burden of all these decisions will fall on KingAlex's shoulders- he can take the blame him ;)
Well, we can always build a couple warriors more, and pop all the huts we find!
Ok, I'll go with Writing from the beginning, as most members said (I also would go for it after Pottery, but one can hope :D )

About the initial moves, most members agreed with my proposal, so I'll do it. Lets start the game and we see what happens; enough of discussions - AI, here we come!
 
>>SAVE<<

As I had said, I moved the worker to the SE BG, before moving the settler 1E, but then I screamed: HOLY COW!!! Er… there is a cow 2S of the starting point, so no need to move the settler anymore.
Btw: we’re almost at the NE corner of the minimap.

Settle on spot, and we see spices to the north.

4000BC (1)
Carthage(???) is found, and starts a warrior – Our only citizen works the BG, of course.
Select Writing to go with, minimum at 20% for now.

3950BC (2)
Worker was going to start a mine, when I saw that he needs 3 turns to complete it(what’s this, and industrious worker?). Anyway, he starts the mine.

3900BC (3)
Zzzzzzzzz

3850BC (4)
Zzzzzzzz

Oh, btw: hitting F10, our opponents are;
1) India, 2) Greece, 3) Ottomans, 4) Rome, 5) Babylon, 6) Persia, 7) Vikings, 8) Keltoi, 9) Germany.
Now, it isn’t fair! 5 Scientific civs?

3800BC (5)
Worker completes mine, starts a road.

3750BC (6)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior

Btw: We can build Pyramids, meaning, our starting techs were Masonry and Writing. We miss CB of course, but we could pre-build the Pyramids for a quick temple in our second city, anyway.

Warrior goes to the mountain, and we see 2 more spices to the north.

3700BC (7)
Worker: road >> goes to the cow to irrigate; we’ll get it in 4 turns from now with the border expansion. Moving the worker, reveals oysters to the south coast.

3650BC (8)
Worker starts a road, as I didn’t want to waste a move: we must irrigate a tile to the east to “drag” water, and unfortunately, that’s a BG tile. Anyway, we can mine it soon later on.
To the West we see hills and mountains.
Finally, we can drop our science to 10%, Writing in 32.

3600BC (9)
Keep exploring.

3550BC (10)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior.
Worker finishes road, goes to irrigate/road nearby.

HOLY COW, again! Another cow “stands” to the east, good for a coastal city, with 2 BG’s and 2 hills/grassland; the problem is that the city there would overlap 2 tiles with capital. Anyway, it’s a good spot, and the capital won’t use the full 21 tiles without a hospital.
Btw: Carthage grows to pop2.

3500BC (11)
We see more mountains/hills to the east, along with a sheep on hills. I’m not familiar with all these new bonuses, but clicking it, it says * Food 2, Shields 2*.

3450BC (12)
We see another sheep at the west, next to the previous one, and a lot of mountains: we should come and settle here later, because those hills could have iron, and better we control them, than belong to an AI(harder to attack).

The coastal spot to the east I mentioned earlier, might be a PERFECT spot for our second city: it has 1 cow, 3 BG’s, 3 hills, and a whale to get, after the border expansion, and all that are surrounded by grassland.

3400BC (13)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior.
Worker completes road, starts irrigating the BG in 2.

3350BC (14)
Keep exporing

3300BC (15)
The land to the East comes to an end: probably our opponents are somewhere behind those mountains(another reason to settle there).

Worker starts irrigating the cow.

3250BC (16)
Carthage: warrior >> settler

3200BC (17)
Worker: irrigate >> mine.

3150BC (18)
Settler in 4

3100BC (19)
We spot IVORY on the north toundra.

3050BC (20)
After a long thinking, I decide that the worker should leave Carthage and go towards our second city, so he can begin to road/connect it, and irrigate the cow.

3000BC (21)
I KNOW that it’s turn 21, but I counted my initial moves, also. Mad-bax stated that the first player should play until the end of 3000BC.

We spot 2 more ivory on the north(3 total), as 3 are the spices nearby.

I ask the Team to forgive what I’m going to do; I’ll play a bit more(maybe 1 turn, or 2), it isn’t illegal if the Team accepts it(and in some cases it can be done with a good reason). Otherwise, I’ll play less turns the next time.

I spotted RED borders to the SW(I suspect Babylon or Rome), and I only want to see what techs they have; I won’t trade at my last turn, but better to know who they are and what techs/Contacts they know. (unfortunately, there hasn’t appeared the “D” to hit it and know the civ this turn).

2950BC (21)
No contact; next turn I’ll enter inside the borders.

Carthage: settler >> barracks.

2900BC (22)
Carthage grows to size 2(we don’t need the granary, after all, for 5 cities).
Settler moves again.
Worker starts irrigating the grassland, so he will “drag” the water to irrigate the cow(in which the settler is now standing).

Here’s the deal:
The civ is Rome, and already has founded it’s second city, Veii.
They have Bronze Working, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and 10g(they must traded with someone), and they don’t build a Wonder yet.
We have Masonry and 100g(Writing in 18).

Summary
1) We don’t have anyone on our back and can settle quietly. After a long think, I’d propose NOT to settle on the hill, but go 1N of the hill; this way, the city would lose a whale(only 1 shield, anyway) and a BG, but would still be on the coast, and get 4 BG’s after the border expansion, and would also have a cow, 2 hills 3 forests(more BG’s) to work, and on 1 forest there are spices to get(more gold).
2) We have 4 warriors total; 1 fortified in Carthage, 2 near the borders of Rome(1 inside them) and 1 warrior near the ivory. The warrior near the ivory should go and stay fortified in our second city; I sent the settler unescorted, since there were no barbs nearby.
3) I suggest that we settle our third city towards the mountains.
4) The settler should NOT settle on the hill east of him, but settle 1N of the hill; we still have a coastal city, we get 4 BG’s (with the border expansion), 2 hills, can work 3 forests – more BG’s, and 1 of them has spices – more gold).

Tech-trading options:
a) We can trade and get a tech immediately or
b) We can explore more to find new contacts which will also lower the value of the techs, and to know the map better.

Rome knows BW(spears) and WC(archers), and it’ll take some time to prepare us for an attack, but it would throw us out of the Wonder Race; we could always trade for WC, let the second city to build temple/Wonder and Carthage build enough archers(and 1 worker soon), and attack Rome.

Thing is that the land there will be settled by another civ, and we don’t want to lose by Domination; we can always attack all the civs in our continent, somewhere at the Industrial age.

I’d say, explore a bit more towards Rome(take the warrior out of their borders first), so we know if we’re in an island alone with Rome(or 1 more civ); in this case, Rome will probably attack soon after it has no room for expansion.

We could settle 3 more cities, build barracks and attack first, but that would take a little time.

EDIT: Maybe we need to change our strategy with the GL; ONLY the capital has a river and it's going to make it to size 12, and it's the only river in our lands.
I'm thinking that the Great Lighthouse might be crucial to get other contacts.

Of course, if we pre-build for the Great Lighthouse in the second city, we probably need to build the Great Library in our Capital.
Anyway, the second city will need a temple to expand it's radious and get all the goodies.

EDIT2: Sorry, but I can't upload dot-map, no matter how many times I try(always have problems with uploading jpg's here). Maybe I could send it by e-mail to one member, so he posts it.
 
I have not looked at the save yet, but plan to play tonight so I just want to go over what is expected of me ;)

As I understand the priotities;

Explore but don't pop huts.
Carthage build another settler. Do we need to escort at this stage?
AK has specified the position of the city I will found, I expect my turn will be up before I get out another settler.
 
@Grayarea: Please, wait for the members to say their opinion first and discuss it; SGOTM's have a 24h "got it, and 72h to post the save, according to the rules.

We're in no hurry; what we'll decide from now on, it will affect the whole game later on.

1) of course you should pop huts, if you find any in hills/mountains.
I didn't saw any until now - maybe there aren't any of them, who knows?.
Because of the hut-scarcity, maybe we'll decide to pop one in flat ground.

2) The barracks in Carthage could be changed to a warrior, and then another settler, although we might decide to build them shortly after, to have veteran units. Don't send the settler unescorted this time. Make sure that Carthage will have pop3 or grow to pop 3 at the same turn when it builds the settler.

When Carthage drops back to pop1, work the cow with our only citizen to gorw quickly.

3) I suggest to settle our 3rd city to the Hill behind the first sheep; with a temple/library, most of those hills/mountains will be ours after the border expansion, and with walls, the city will be hard to fall.
We should reinforce this city with spears/catapults when we can.
Our borders will be there.

The 3rd city will also have a river nearby, and with 2 sheeps, will grow reasonably(it also has some grassland and 1 plain to irrigate along with the hills).

I bet Rome will soon want to settle there, to grab the hills/mountains - Iron may be there. Anyway, it's better to control the mountains and expand towards the AI in the little land we can have.

4) Despite some overlaping(2 tiles) with the capital, our next city will never use all of it's own expansion tiles, before it gets an aqueduct, and even then there're other tiles to grab.

5) Start a temple to the second city to expand it's borders and grab all the BG's; later we will pre-build the palace. We might also cut the forests, to help the city finish the temple sooner(our workers are fast enough).

I'll wait to see what the other players say.
 
I have downloaded save and will take it home for analysis. (At home I have no Inet :( ) I will send my opinion tomorrow morning when I came to work.
 
OK if everyone is happy then I will play tomorrow night.

Gives me a chance to whip the zulu some more in GOTM 35 ;)
 
Here is the dot map.
 

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@King Alex did you play 1 turn less than you should have?

@ Gray Area- Your coloured dots aren’t in bad positions but there are shared tiles.
We need every city to have as many shield producing tiles of its own- not cross overs or sharing with other cities.

Here's 3 of my suggested positions with the expanded borders.
King Alex's suggestion for his 3rd city fits with this configuration-
(the tile north east of the warrior on Graybeards map)
but I think crosses over 1 mountain tile with the purple city but that's
not so bad.

As to the order of them I think it has to be how the player sees it when it's their turn.

Trade masonry with rome for 2 tech and 55 gold before they buy it from another civ. I hope we find a civ with pottery soon.
 

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@Matternich: Actually, I played my full 20 turns, plus 2 more turns to have the contact with Rome.

The dot-map is the map I send to Grayarea by e-mail; I know that there are shared tiles, but we'd use more grassland overal this way.

It's what I see as the best places to have an RCP, AND make our cities really powerful, working as more grassland/BG's/hills as we can, AND to NOT allow the AI to settle anywhere nearby to our land after they expand their borders(we may need a couple warriors fortified to cover all the land).

I definetly wouldn't want any foreing troops to cross our land all the time, if they settle here, and if they do settle, we raze the city later and our culture will cover the land.

I'll explain my thoughts on the first map:

1) The capital will have 19 tiles to work(with the tile it is), despite the overlap with the second city; I think they're more than enough, and all the most of them are grasslland and there's also 1 plains and 1 mountain. It already has 2 BG's, and maybe there's a 3rd above the forest.
It'll need a hospital to grow 5 more citizens and get to pop17, from size 12.

2) The second city(green dot) will have 17 tiles to work, will not grow to 12 before it get's an aqueduct, so it stays to pop6 for some time, and even if it'll share 2 tiles with the red dot to the north, at 15 tiles will have: 4 BG's, 2 hills, 3 forests - 1 with the spices(more gold), and above the forests more BG's might be "waiting" for us.
It's radius will expand and will cover the most of the east peninsula(with a fortified warrior, we'll not allow the AI to settle there).

3) red-dot: will use 17 tiles, including in them 4 coastal squares; 2 BG, 3 hills, 5 grassland, 4 coastal squares, and 6 toundra tiles; it'll also need an aqueduct to grow past 6, and it'll be a good city.

By placing the city there, we'll make sure that with the border expansion, we'll grab the 3 ivory also, so we can trade for techs/gold.

4) The blue-dot will have FULL 12 tiles to work from the start, and 4-6 more coastal tiles - 15-16 maximum; 1 BG, 1 forest(maybe a BG), the spices forest(more gold) and more than enough grassland, and it's also in the "right" distance from the capital.
It won't share any tiles with other cities.

5) Pink-dot; will also not share any tiles with other cities, and it's in nearly perfect distance from the capital.
a) it will grab most of the hills/mountains that we need to have/control
b) it has 2 sheeps, 3 plains, 4 hills, mountains to work, is in a river, and will also be a very strong-shield city; plenty of food will allow us to work the hills/mountains.
c) it WON'T allow the AI to settle anywhere from behind.
d) Sure, we won't grab those pearls, so what? We'll have more than enough food/shields for this city, that is worthing more.
e) NOBODY will be able to get past those mountains to attack us if we reinforce this city good and place a few spears in those mountains.

Just my thoughts.
 
@KA:
I did not agree with you that you have know and, despite on that, have played 2 more turns. I think that this is a kind of disrespect to Grayarea...
 
I had said that if the Team wouldn't approve what I did, I'd be responsible for my actions.

I apologize to Grayarea and the Team, for playing 2 more turns.

I will play 8 turns next time.

If the Team decides that I should play less than 8 turns next time, or skip my turn and play 8 turns in the Team's "3rd cycle", I'll accept it.

KA
 
No, you should not play just 8 turns next time, but fully 10. This is a team play, and you should not make our team weaker next round. ;)

As to contact with Rome - of cource, this is much more interesting to play with some active events (trade/war/etc.) in the game. But rule is rule: the closer we take it, the more accurate will be our result, and more fun to everyone of us.
 
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