FWIW, the Jason system gives 480 AD and 560 AD as the domination "best dates" for Classic and C3C respectively on this map with standard rules. The eight turn difference is down to the difference in industrious trait between the two versions.
SGOTM7 - Team Wacken
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
WackenOpenAir said:
I think this would indeed be a good idea, as they swept through the opposition appreciably faster.
Tao etc obviously won't try C3C, but I will be happy to play whichever version.
@ AlanH, is the Jason date automatically generated now, or is it the result of playtesting? I had forgotten about the stronger industrial workers in PTW, but this probably wasn't a big factor, apart perhaps from roading captured lands.
One thing not relevant to our game as much as for the vanilla/PTW guys is that two of the advantages for vanilla (second core and wonder triggered GA) depend largely on leaders, so Xteam would have been held back quite a lot.
3: Vanilla/ptw deity is between c3c deity and demigod, but closest to deity.. main reason it is ranked along with c3c demigod in hof is the score multiplier.Offa said:
(Free units and unit support and cost modifier is same for both, but AI trade modifier is same as demigod, and everything related to barbs.. (getting techs and such from huts) is like demigod)
4: this helps
5: the ability to get close to full world map in the initial trades is helpful.. getting more contacts can be both good and bad in AW
in addition AIs are better at naval invasions in c3c than in vanilla/ptw.. they are still bad in c3c, but even worse in the classic versions
Sabre
Cheftain
Congrats to Team Wacken on your nice finish date. You guys are correct in that there really isn't a fair way to compare Vanilla/PTW to C3C since they are quite different.
On the 5 vanilla advantages:
1: The second core - we never actually got a second core going. We had pretty bad luck with leaders and didn't get our second one (first went to Sun Tzu's to kick off the Golden Age) until almost the end. We used him for the Sistine Chapel for a quick culture fix. I think more important than a second core was RCP for us.
2: Leader rushed Golden Age - This was pretty big, but if we knew we had to handbuild Sun Tzu's we could have had a prebuild ready in our top city at about the same time our leader showed up, so the advantage here was solely in the extra units that city was able to produce. Still a good advantage.
3: Vanilla diety level - As Gyathaar points out the levels aren't that different. I think the biggest factor with the AI was the small size of many of them. It's hard for any AI to be a threat when they can only muster up 4-5 towns. I've got to go through some of the other threads to see if others were experiencing such weak AI as we were. We were constantly surprised by the lack of counterattack we were seeing. One oddity - the Vikings and Americans refrained from trading for our contact for at least 30 turns. We finally ended up sailing out that way to see if they were any more advanced than our pitiful neighbors (they weren't).
4: Cheaper upgrades - Yeah this was a big help, up there with the leader rush. Once we learned Chivalry we were almost immediately able to upgrade our masses of horsemen. This kicked our progress into high gear even before the golden age hit. We also made good use of the warrior to sword upgrade early on.
5: Trading differences - Origionally I thought this wasn't such a big deal here considering the lack of trading that went on but then Gyathaar mentioned the maps. I think that was a fair advantage since we had a good idea of what we were up against before we began our assault. I forget when C3C allows map trading (Printing Press?) but it would have been far too late to be much help to us. Knowing ahead of time where everyone was and what kind of terrain we faced without having to explore on our own helped us to be more efficient in our attacks.
I'm sure C3C has it's own advantages here (forest chops, armies - little value here I know) but I don't know how much they played into this style game. Either way, we both played good games - so congrats again!
You guys are correct in that there really isn't a fair way to compare Vanilla/PTW to C3C since they are quite different.On the 5 vanilla advantages:
1: The second core - we never actually got a second core going. We had pretty bad luck with leaders and didn't get our second one (first went to Sun Tzu's to kick off the Golden Age) until almost the end. We used him for the Sistine Chapel for a quick culture fix. I think more important than a second core was RCP for us.
2: Leader rushed Golden Age - This was pretty big, but if we knew we had to handbuild Sun Tzu's we could have had a prebuild ready in our top city at about the same time our leader showed up, so the advantage here was solely in the extra units that city was able to produce. Still a good advantage.
3: Vanilla diety level - As Gyathaar points out the levels aren't that different. I think the biggest factor with the AI was the small size of many of them. It's hard for any AI to be a threat when they can only muster up 4-5 towns. I've got to go through some of the other threads to see if others were experiencing such weak AI as we were. We were constantly surprised by the lack of counterattack we were seeing. One oddity - the Vikings and Americans refrained from trading for our contact for at least 30 turns. We finally ended up sailing out that way to see if they were any more advanced than our pitiful neighbors (they weren't).
4: Cheaper upgrades - Yeah this was a big help, up there with the leader rush. Once we learned Chivalry we were almost immediately able to upgrade our masses of horsemen. This kicked our progress into high gear even before the golden age hit. We also made good use of the warrior to sword upgrade early on.
5: Trading differences - Origionally I thought this wasn't such a big deal here considering the lack of trading that went on but then Gyathaar mentioned the maps. I think that was a fair advantage since we had a good idea of what we were up against before we began our assault. I forget when C3C allows map trading (Printing Press?) but it would have been far too late to be much help to us. Knowing ahead of time where everyone was and what kind of terrain we faced without having to explore on our own helped us to be more efficient in our attacks.
I'm sure C3C has it's own advantages here (forest chops, armies - little value here I know) but I don't know how much they played into this style game. Either way, we both played good games - so congrats again!
The fact Tao they were able to start conquering earlier meant they never met muskets, and that had a big knock-on effect on their speed to domination. Renata also made a neat end-run on the tail of the spiral, where defences were even lighter, so they didn't have to defeat the main Viking cities to reach domination.Offa said:
Jason dates are computed automatically from difficulty, map size, player civ traits, and the technology (or Lighthouse) required to reach the rest of the world. There's no play testing input.
Too right! We wuz robbed
[edit] Deleted irrelevant remarks !
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I see all but xevious have singed up for 08.
Offa asked about PTW.
Personally the only reason i want to play any version is that i prefer to play the version with most competition. That is C3C.
What version do all of you guys want to play ? I'd like to leave this to be decided democratically.
And xevious, if you are reading, are you gonna join for another one ?
(Xevious last post does indicate he wants to join, but that is 6 weeks old)
Offa asked about PTW.
Personally the only reason i want to play any version is that i prefer to play the version with most competition. That is C3C.
What version do all of you guys want to play ? I'd like to leave this to be decided democratically.
And xevious, if you are reading, are you gonna join for another one ?
(Xevious last post does indicate he wants to join, but that is 6 weeks old)
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I did not PM him. I am rather sure that he will be looking here if he is even logging in to the site. I will send him a PM anyway just to be sure. If he doesn't answer, then maybe we'll find someone else.
How much time do you want to give Xevious?
anyone specific in mind to invite to our team?
This time of the year, it is very possible he is on a vacation.
5 is also a good number to play with, so maybe we could start with 5 if he doesn't respond in time and he could still join us later.
How much time do you want to give Xevious?
anyone specific in mind to invite to our team?
This time of the year, it is very possible he is on a vacation.
5 is also a good number to play with, so maybe we could start with 5 if he doesn't respond in time and he could still join us later.
Xevious
1 Solvalou left
Sorry for being so quiet, guys. Actually I'm not on vacation (yet). I am however getting my kids ready to go to camp tomorrow, and then will be on vacation the first week of August. After that my kids are gone the rest of August and we have plans to do some home improvement. I think I can fit in this game but just be aware I may need to have my turn skipped or moved around depending on what we are doing to the house (think paint, carpet, wood floor, etc.).
Xevious
Xevious
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Xevious and grahamiam on the version to play ?
Xevious
1 Solvalou left
I must say I prefer C3C also.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
dmanakho said:
i guess i presumably agree
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