Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Sorry. I had been without internet over the weekend and I didn't think I could be up so soon. I can pick this up tomorrow morning EDT.
SGOTM8 - Own
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Pressuring borders increases the likeliness that they will declare war on us, but as long as we have a strong military and watch for sneak attacks it should not be a problem.
I would like to have two phases of war against them, to get some techs/cities out of it. I was thinking of attacking and taking 2-3 cities (more if we can, depends on their military presence), then getting some tech for peace. Use the horses to build a horse army, and push back greece; we'll need horsemen to even dent the hoplites.
We could optionally try to slice into the center of the Greek lands to take their iron.
I don't have a significant preference about how to fight, but I want to make sure we start focusing on a military buildup. I often build infrastructure and expansion while neglecting military, and I just want to keep military in the forground. How we actually proceed is open to discussion.
I would like to have two phases of war against them, to get some techs/cities out of it. I was thinking of attacking and taking 2-3 cities (more if we can, depends on their military presence), then getting some tech for peace. Use the horses to build a horse army, and push back greece; we'll need horsemen to even dent the hoplites.
We could optionally try to slice into the center of the Greek lands to take their iron.
I don't have a significant preference about how to fight, but I want to make sure we start focusing on a military buildup. I often build infrastructure and expansion while neglecting military, and I just want to keep military in the forground. How we actually proceed is open to discussion.
Andronicus
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Own said:
I'm not sure I understand you - 4 turn settler factory will work well if implemented as I described above. Are you suggesting we work a forest one turn then irr FP alt turns instead of plains? In despotism this gives same outcome (FP then forest -> no surplus food, 2S - plains 2 turns -> no surplus food, 2S) Unless I misunderstood, it sounds like a lot of extra work for no benefit and even if it did give an extra shield - what would we do with it (settler only req 30S and we're already getting that).
I think either I screwed up, or your calculations are incorrect, as IIRC we are not getting a settler every 4 turns. And the problem is shields. Because we go from irrigated plains to forest, we get an extra shield. Then we have to work a 3 food zero shield FP, but we grow that turn and no harm done. It's 4 food then 6 food.
Here's a discussion about it
I had a low shield settler factory once. I didn't try this and I didn't get enough shields, then I did and it worked.
Here's a discussion about it
I had a low shield settler factory once. I didn't try this and I didn't get enough shields, then I did and it worked.
Andronicus
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Own said:
See post 125 - I described in detail how it works for this site. We are not low on shields as we get 6 shields first 2 turns, 7 shields next 2 turns plus 2 shields on growth from forest (twice) giving 30 shields. The disconcerting thing is at the end of turn 3 it shows growth in 1, but settler build in 2. This is because the program does not calculate the extra shields gained on growth.
Believe me it does work. I suspect it is the reason team Wackem shot out so far ahead in score early.
Edit : Washington is currently out of synch
Next settler due in 1, but growth in 2
Suggest move BG tile to lake to delay settler 1 turn - this delay will be made up for by settler factory now being go (need to use both mined BGs - have to take one back from 04 - could be why own found it coming up shields short) Should then find settlers at turns 2, 6 and 10 next player and turns 4 and 8 following player.
Andronicus
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Any thoughts on forbidden palace. Corruption is making its mark
Currently of our core cities (the ones on the starting plain)
Buffalo wasting 2/3 commerce and 0/1 shield
08 wasting 1/2 comm, 1/3 shield
06 wasting 1/4 comm. 1/2 shield
02 wasting 1/3 comm, 2/5 shield
03 wasting 2/5 comm, 2/6 shield
05 wasting 1/3 comm, 1/6 shield
04 wasting 1/4 comm, 1/5 shield
total wastage 9/24 commerce, 8/28 shields for core towns not incl capital
05 could build FP in 37 turns or sooner - I'm not sure what the reduction in waste and corruption would be, but I think it even more necessary once we reach Rep with potentially more commerce to gain. (Rep due in 32)
Embassies - any thoughts for timing of these?
Jungle cities
These are totally corrupt - I do not see much gain in building infrastructure - a rax takes 40 turns to build, then pay for it whilst building archer every 20 turns -> extra 20g cost for each archer. Similarly temples not worthwhile unless we decide we are not going to push any further north and want to culture protect our current border. I thought we would want to tackle China to gain horses - once we have Shanghai and closer cities a temple in the middle of the jungle area will be of little use but continuing expense.
My suggestion is to keep building workers every 10 turns which can first provide roads for our military, second clear and irrigate jungle for growth in republic when these corrupt cities will be able to support scientists.
Resources
- horses - appears should be our first goal unless there is a consensus for peaceful coexistence with Chinese
- iron - 2 options a) fight Greeks for Corinth (hard work with archers (or horses) v hoplites, probably have to wait for longbows) or b) send a well defended settler / worker up to far north (N of Pharsolos) and build road / iron colony with city on northernmost tundra - this option requires peaceful coexistence with Greeks or our supply route gets disrupted. Option 3 is wait for Greeks to hook it up (if ever) then trade for it (hoping they dont trade to Chinese)
I'm undecided on this one - we will need iron for railroads and if want decent fighting units for next few ages
- wines - would be nice - either fight for them (see Corinth above) or trade
Military matters. If we agree to punish Chinese for boldly aquiring our horses.
Need
1) Army of archers.
2) 2 new cities - one 2NW of ECB and 2nd further 1NE, 1N
3) Roads between these cities and towards Shanghai
Currently have 6 archers (5v, 1e)
In10 turns we could have further 4 (2 from 04, 2 from 03) +1 from 05 if no FP
In 20 turns we could have above plus 6 (2 from 04, 03 and 02) + 3 from 05
giving total of 16 (or 20 if no FP) archers - option for some to be spears to minimise losses.
How mant do we need?
Probably next turn set will set up China war, following one should commence it
? ally Greeks as Chinese are the strongest of us 3.
Currently of our core cities (the ones on the starting plain)
Buffalo wasting 2/3 commerce and 0/1 shield
08 wasting 1/2 comm, 1/3 shield
06 wasting 1/4 comm. 1/2 shield
02 wasting 1/3 comm, 2/5 shield
03 wasting 2/5 comm, 2/6 shield
05 wasting 1/3 comm, 1/6 shield
04 wasting 1/4 comm, 1/5 shield
total wastage 9/24 commerce, 8/28 shields for core towns not incl capital
05 could build FP in 37 turns or sooner - I'm not sure what the reduction in waste and corruption would be, but I think it even more necessary once we reach Rep with potentially more commerce to gain. (Rep due in 32)
Embassies - any thoughts for timing of these?
Jungle cities
These are totally corrupt - I do not see much gain in building infrastructure - a rax takes 40 turns to build, then pay for it whilst building archer every 20 turns -> extra 20g cost for each archer. Similarly temples not worthwhile unless we decide we are not going to push any further north and want to culture protect our current border. I thought we would want to tackle China to gain horses - once we have Shanghai and closer cities a temple in the middle of the jungle area will be of little use but continuing expense.
My suggestion is to keep building workers every 10 turns which can first provide roads for our military, second clear and irrigate jungle for growth in republic when these corrupt cities will be able to support scientists.
Resources
- horses - appears should be our first goal unless there is a consensus for peaceful coexistence with Chinese
- iron - 2 options a) fight Greeks for Corinth (hard work with archers (or horses) v hoplites, probably have to wait for longbows) or b) send a well defended settler / worker up to far north (N of Pharsolos) and build road / iron colony with city on northernmost tundra - this option requires peaceful coexistence with Greeks or our supply route gets disrupted. Option 3 is wait for Greeks to hook it up (if ever) then trade for it (hoping they dont trade to Chinese)
I'm undecided on this one - we will need iron for railroads and if want decent fighting units for next few ages- wines - would be nice - either fight for them (see Corinth above) or trade
Military matters. If we agree to punish Chinese for boldly aquiring our horses.
Need
1) Army of archers.
2) 2 new cities - one 2NW of ECB and 2nd further 1NE, 1N
3) Roads between these cities and towards Shanghai
Currently have 6 archers (5v, 1e)
In10 turns we could have further 4 (2 from 04, 2 from 03) +1 from 05 if no FP
In 20 turns we could have above plus 6 (2 from 04, 03 and 02) + 3 from 05
giving total of 16 (or 20 if no FP) archers - option for some to be spears to minimise losses.
How mant do we need?
Probably next turn set will set up China war, following one should commence it
? ally Greeks as Chinese are the strongest of us 3.
Andronicus
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Own said:
In C3C the position of the FP has no role in corruption other than for the city in which it is built. The important thing is just to build it. It cannot help to make a second core unlike in PTW. Building it in a totally corrupt city will take a long time unless leader rushed, it is generally better to build it in a city with good production so it gets built quickly - hence my choice of 05. It would not make sense to build it in a rax city as now we are paying rax upkeep we should use these cities for military production. That leaves 05 with 5S, 02 with 3S and the rest with 1S production.
I used to think that too, but it does reduce corruption by a small amount in surrounding cities. That doesn't give you a "core," but it is signifigant. But, sometimes the FP can actually increase corruption if the city has very low corruption, and we don't want that.
Andronicus
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Own said:
There is some reduction in corruption for cites near the FP as this does improve distance corruption, however it does not reduce rank corruption other than by increasing the optimal city number which it does wherever it is built. The benefits I believe to be quite small. OTOH, by building the FP in a corrupt location it will not be avail for a lot longer resulting in increased corruption for our core in that time. I was unaware vof the FP increasing corruption in a city - I would be interested in reading any articles on that.
I have found Axeman's article in the War Academy very insightful (I struggle with understanding all the calculations though
)Andronicus
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OK - Ive gone into some details with civassist re FP location
I have considered 4 locations - 05 for its productive capacity will produce FP soonest, 06 and Buffalo will give more corruption benefit to northern towns on starting plain plus some extra benefit to jungle towns, 07 maxes the benefit in jungle towns. The wild card in the stack is waiting and seeing if we get a leader in the Chinese war (and if we successfully attack Beijing - size 7 on hill) using Beijing for FP as I agree this is a great city site and may make for semi productive cities around it. A lot of ifs, but potentially the best outcome.
I have used civassist to asssign corruption in Rep for each of above cities as that is what we will most likely spend most of the game in - this gives the following table
City % corruption
Desp Rep FP05 FP06 FPBu FP07
04 19 14 10 13 13 13
05 23 18 08 15 15 15
06 27 22 18 10 18 18
08 30 25 21 21 18 21
02 37 32 26 23 26 26
03 41 36 26 28 28 28
Buf 52 44 36 28 20 36
07 78 63 54 49 39 20
09 90 75 64 61 49 36
ECB 90 83 71 69 56 34
(edit - sorry I couldnt make the colomns line up - hopefully its readable)
The earliest we could build the FP in each of these cities (switching straight away, assigning workers to max productive potential and growth to size 6, assuming research rep in 33 turns and anarchy for 5 turns) is.....
05 - 32 turns - nicely timed for just before rep
06 - 59 turns
Buf - 79 turns
07 - 83 turns
Of course a successful war against China spawning a GML (or 2) whilst capturing Beijing in approx 30 turns would out perform all of the above if used for rushing FP. Is this strat being too greedy? Hand building FP in Beijing (or native city rebuilt on site) likely to take 200 turns from capture.
What do others think?
.
.
.
or should I just shut up and let everyone get on with the fun bit of blatting our enemies
I have considered 4 locations - 05 for its productive capacity will produce FP soonest, 06 and Buffalo will give more corruption benefit to northern towns on starting plain plus some extra benefit to jungle towns, 07 maxes the benefit in jungle towns. The wild card in the stack is waiting and seeing if we get a leader in the Chinese war (and if we successfully attack Beijing - size 7 on hill) using Beijing for FP as I agree this is a great city site and may make for semi productive cities around it. A lot of ifs, but potentially the best outcome.
I have used civassist to asssign corruption in Rep for each of above cities as that is what we will most likely spend most of the game in - this gives the following table
City % corruption
Desp Rep FP05 FP06 FPBu FP07
04 19 14 10 13 13 13
05 23 18 08 15 15 15
06 27 22 18 10 18 18
08 30 25 21 21 18 21
02 37 32 26 23 26 26
03 41 36 26 28 28 28
Buf 52 44 36 28 20 36
07 78 63 54 49 39 20
09 90 75 64 61 49 36
ECB 90 83 71 69 56 34
(edit - sorry I couldnt make the colomns line up - hopefully its readable)
The earliest we could build the FP in each of these cities (switching straight away, assigning workers to max productive potential and growth to size 6, assuming research rep in 33 turns and anarchy for 5 turns) is.....
05 - 32 turns - nicely timed for just before rep
06 - 59 turns
Buf - 79 turns
07 - 83 turns
Of course a successful war against China spawning a GML (or 2) whilst capturing Beijing in approx 30 turns would out perform all of the above if used for rushing FP. Is this strat being too greedy? Hand building FP in Beijing (or native city rebuilt on site) likely to take 200 turns from capture.
What do others think?
.
.
.
or should I just shut up and let everyone get on with the fun bit of blatting our enemies
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
We should research Literature before Republic. It could be done in 10 turns and we need something to build besides barracks.
I see mapmaking is out there. We should not go to war until the AI has some off-island contacts. It would be a shame for China to get them and then not trade to us.
My vote is for the FP in the city which can build it fastest.
Am I up?
I see mapmaking is out there. We should not go to war until the AI has some off-island contacts. It would be a shame for China to get them and then not trade to us.
My vote is for the FP in the city which can build it fastest.
Am I up?
Andronicus
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Abegweit said:
Yep - roster is...
Abegweit - next to go
voe - completes everyone one turn
Andronicus
IstariAsuka
Symphony D
stagnate
Own
Andronicus
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As a shot from left field.
Abegweit suggested researching Lit before Rep - my initial thought was we have already delayed Rep too much allowing other teams to potentially out research us (I believe this is likly to be a tech race - the promise of graphs comparing tech rates with results suggests others feel likewise). I then wondered what might happen if we built the GLib in 05 (using prebuild) - would complete in approx 55 - 60 turns. Could then stop research after Rep allowing build up cash resources until education discovered then switch back on. The early maps and contact trading should ensure a rapid rate of tech aquisitions which we can take advantage of by selling for gpt. Might this allow us to catch up with where we might have been if we had reached Rep earlier and were researching faster? Of course it would mean putting up with despotic penalties a little longer.
Abegweit suggested researching Lit before Rep - my initial thought was we have already delayed Rep too much allowing other teams to potentially out research us (I believe this is likly to be a tech race - the promise of graphs comparing tech rates with results suggests others feel likewise). I then wondered what might happen if we built the GLib in 05 (using prebuild) - would complete in approx 55 - 60 turns. Could then stop research after Rep allowing build up cash resources until education discovered then switch back on. The early maps and contact trading should ensure a rapid rate of tech aquisitions which we can take advantage of by selling for gpt. Might this allow us to catch up with where we might have been if we had reached Rep earlier and were researching faster? Of course it would mean putting up with despotic penalties a little longer.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Upon reflection, I think you're right. Literature is yet another optional tech, one we should trade for instead of researching. Every optional tech we research is that much more time to flight. We should be able to get Republic within about 24 turns or so. With a bit of luck, we can use it to trade our way into the MA perhaps getting one or both of the other optional techs on the way.
As for ways to catch back up, it seems to me that the right way to do it is to get a GA, not a GL. In either case, we need wonders so I'll start a couple of pre-builds, one for the FP and the other for something else. My preference would be the Gardens with the GW as a fallback.
In my experience, the Library slows down tech instead of speeding it up. This is especially true here. The Gods have blessed us with a big fertile land to the north. We need to cover it with scientists whose work we can sell to the AI.
I'll also get out more archers so that we can get the space for the scientists to go to work. We still have too many barracks under construction. I'll look into the possibility of building workers instead. There's a lot of jungle out there.
I'll be starting my turns about 4 hours from this post and have it up a couple of hours later.
As for ways to catch back up, it seems to me that the right way to do it is to get a GA, not a GL. In either case, we need wonders so I'll start a couple of pre-builds, one for the FP and the other for something else. My preference would be the Gardens with the GW as a fallback.
In my experience, the Library slows down tech instead of speeding it up. This is especially true here. The Gods have blessed us with a big fertile land to the north. We need to cover it with scientists whose work we can sell to the AI.
I'll also get out more archers so that we can get the space for the scientists to go to work. We still have too many barracks under construction. I'll look into the possibility of building workers instead. There's a lot of jungle out there.
I'll be starting my turns about 4 hours from this post and have it up a couple of hours later.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Pre-flight check: per Andronicus suggestion, Washington is delayed one turn. I cannot find any way to squeeze in a build instead. Troops will be moved to this for MPs, enabling us to reduce the lux rate. O2 and O5 are switched to wonder builds. One will get the FP and the other, hopefully, the Colossus. A couple of other barracks builds are switched to workers and pults. O8 will be allowed to complete its build, giving us three decent unit builders. Warriors are moved on their way to main towns for garrison duty.
Turn 1 (975 BC) Reduce lux rate to 20%. Republic now due in 25. A barb galley is spotted.
Turn 2 (950 BC) Washington settler -> settler. O4 archer -> spearman. O7 worker->worker Reduce lux rate to 0%. Republic due in 20.
Turn 3 (925 BC) Blah
Turn 4 (900 BC) Lux rate 10%
Turn 5 (875 BC) O3 archer->archer
Turn 6 (850 BC) Washington settler->settler. Worker merged into O2. Lux rate 0%
Turn 7 (825 BC) O4 spearman->worker O9 worker->worker; O10 founded->worker
Turn 8 (800 BC) O3 worker->archer
Turn 9 (775 BC) Buffalo worker->worker O6 catapult->catapult; barb camp appears to south east; move archer in to defend
Turn 10 (750 BC) Washington settler->settler. O4 worker->archer; Beijing builds Pyramids
0% lux
Post-flight:
Republic due in 11. FP in 29 and Colossus 27. The wonder builds can still be vetoed if desired. I doubt well get the Colossus, but capturing it in Shanghai and building the Gardens or Great Wall would be nice.
There is a settler with movement left. Im not sure what to do with it. I think it should probably go n-n but thats a spot with no growth until more of the jungle is cleared. The Chinese like to buy our maps.
We are now up to eight archers, a spear and a pult for the attack on China. About twice as many archers and a few more cats are needed before we make our move. We should be about ready right about the time we revolt to Republic.
Turn 1 (975 BC) Reduce lux rate to 20%. Republic now due in 25. A barb galley is spotted.
Turn 2 (950 BC) Washington settler -> settler. O4 archer -> spearman. O7 worker->worker Reduce lux rate to 0%. Republic due in 20.
Turn 3 (925 BC) Blah
Turn 4 (900 BC) Lux rate 10%
Turn 5 (875 BC) O3 archer->archer
Turn 6 (850 BC) Washington settler->settler. Worker merged into O2. Lux rate 0%
Turn 7 (825 BC) O4 spearman->worker O9 worker->worker; O10 founded->worker
Turn 8 (800 BC) O3 worker->archer
Turn 9 (775 BC) Buffalo worker->worker O6 catapult->catapult; barb camp appears to south east; move archer in to defend
Turn 10 (750 BC) Washington settler->settler. O4 worker->archer; Beijing builds Pyramids
0% luxPost-flight:
Republic due in 11. FP in 29 and Colossus 27. The wonder builds can still be vetoed if desired. I doubt well get the Colossus, but capturing it in Shanghai and building the Gardens or Great Wall would be nice.
There is a settler with movement left. Im not sure what to do with it. I think it should probably go n-n but thats a spot with no growth until more of the jungle is cleared. The Chinese like to buy our maps.
We are now up to eight archers, a spear and a pult for the attack on China. About twice as many archers and a few more cats are needed before we make our move. We should be about ready right about the time we revolt to Republic.
Andronicus
Emperor
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Nice turn Abegweit 
I would suggest prioritising next 2 cities to jungle 2N of 07 and then 1N,1NE of that with roading hill between and jungle N of 2nd city. This would give our force a quick route to Shanghei. We need to keep producing a few more settlers to fill up the jungle.
Any thoughts on when to attack? Already our forces strong enough to take Chengdu (it has reached culture expansion so wont autoraze) and possibly also Shanghei. If we have designs on Beijing probably need 4-6 cats as size 7 on hill. Currently both China and Greece mil ave to us. In 5 turns we could have 2 more archers (04 gets shields on growth) who could join with 2 mp archers in 02 and 06 and cat to be completed in 6 from 06 plus current 5 archers up north and spear and cat on way - is this enough? - is this leaving us too weak if our attack falls flat. I believe we need to invest in embassy and inspect Chengdu and Shanghai before committing to attack to assess likelihood of success. Allying Greece may prevent China sending as many reinforcements. ? Sell Rep to China for tech +/- gold turn after we emerge from anarchy into Rep, then await their descent into anarchy to declare?
I noticed that the Chinese settled near northern iron (? obtain in peace deal)
Re barb in SE - my thinking is it is better to defend on mountain (2defence v 1attack) than attack with archer (2attack v 2defence) so long as barb doesnt move towards gems. ? move mp warrior out of 04 to help out? - just need to remember happiness if do this. The other place we may have barb problems is the mountains north of our core - ? leave a warrior on fog dispelling duties.
I wonder about building a rax in 08. This will be one of our core towns, but with low shoilds and high commerce I doubt we will get value for rax here - perhaps a swap to courthouse so not to waste shields and then cats or workers until need for infrastructure.
Also for ECB - temple here of little value as once built will presumably have taken Chengdu. As Chengdu already has its temple we will be well behind in any culture race if we elect peaceful route - current flip risk approx 1/200 per turn (? leave waiting force in ECB to prevent flip). The 15 shields could be swapped to a cat in 5 turns.
I would suggest prioritising next 2 cities to jungle 2N of 07 and then 1N,1NE of that with roading hill between and jungle N of 2nd city. This would give our force a quick route to Shanghei. We need to keep producing a few more settlers to fill up the jungle.
Any thoughts on when to attack? Already our forces strong enough to take Chengdu (it has reached culture expansion so wont autoraze) and possibly also Shanghei. If we have designs on Beijing probably need 4-6 cats as size 7 on hill. Currently both China and Greece mil ave to us. In 5 turns we could have 2 more archers (04 gets shields on growth) who could join with 2 mp archers in 02 and 06 and cat to be completed in 6 from 06 plus current 5 archers up north and spear and cat on way - is this enough? - is this leaving us too weak if our attack falls flat. I believe we need to invest in embassy and inspect Chengdu and Shanghai before committing to attack to assess likelihood of success. Allying Greece may prevent China sending as many reinforcements. ? Sell Rep to China for tech +/- gold turn after we emerge from anarchy into Rep, then await their descent into anarchy to declare?
I noticed that the Chinese settled near northern iron (? obtain in peace deal)
Re barb in SE - my thinking is it is better to defend on mountain (2defence v 1attack) than attack with archer (2attack v 2defence) so long as barb doesnt move towards gems. ? move mp warrior out of 04 to help out? - just need to remember happiness if do this. The other place we may have barb problems is the mountains north of our core - ? leave a warrior on fog dispelling duties.
I wonder about building a rax in 08. This will be one of our core towns, but with low shoilds and high commerce I doubt we will get value for rax here - perhaps a swap to courthouse so not to waste shields and then cats or workers until need for infrastructure.
Also for ECB - temple here of little value as once built will presumably have taken Chengdu. As Chengdu already has its temple we will be well behind in any culture race if we elect peaceful route - current flip risk approx 1/200 per turn (? leave waiting force in ECB to prevent flip). The 15 shields could be swapped to a cat in 5 turns.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
@Andronicus: I agree with you about the temple and barracks builds. I thought about changing them myself but didn't... It's not too late to switch the temple to a cat. Maybe the barracks might better become a granary or a harbour?
To the next player: there were two barbs in the camp and now there only is one. The other has probably headed to the east and may soon threaten our gems colony. The archer needs to move to protect it.
About war: I had not planned on it this soon so three archers are still in the south on garrison and barb-clearing duties. If they are to move north, the lux rate will have to be raised to 20%, slowing our research rate. I still think it's a good idea to wait for contacts before declaring war. For one thing, the Chinese are out exploring but the Greeks are not.
Edit: WRT investigation of Chengdu and Shanghai, it would be really good to find out whether the latter is likely to get the Colossus.
To the next player: there were two barbs in the camp and now there only is one. The other has probably headed to the east and may soon threaten our gems colony. The archer needs to move to protect it.
About war: I had not planned on it this soon so three archers are still in the south on garrison and barb-clearing duties. If they are to move north, the lux rate will have to be raised to 20%, slowing our research rate. I still think it's a good idea to wait for contacts before declaring war. For one thing, the Chinese are out exploring but the Greeks are not.
Edit: WRT investigation of Chengdu and Shanghai, it would be really good to find out whether the latter is likely to get the Colossus.
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