[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[Hesha]

Hey guys! I hope I don't make any stupid mistakes here with this format. Please tell me, if I commit any faux pas!

I have just finished a game on Noble (first game in a few years) and I dominated the AI quite easily, so I fired up another Custom Game on Monarch. The only changes I made from the default settings are:

Small Map instead of Standard
No huts
No events

The reason for playing on a small map is because the last game reminded me how tedious things can become in mid game, when you have just too many cities to manage on every turn. I guess on a smaller map there will be less of that.

My decision to turn this into a Shadow Game came a little late, turn 27, but I guess it's never to late. If you feel I have already ruined everything, I can always start over (on the same map, or on another one).

Here's what I've done so far: Ramesses is Spiritual and Industrious. I started out with Agriculture and Wheel. This was the staring location:

Spoiler :

I moved the warrior SW, but nothing of any interest was revealed, just more featureless forest. I decided to settle in place, which revealed a fish resource just outside the BFC, but I was happy enough with the location regardless.

With two animal resources right in front of me, I decided to research AH first while building my first worker. After that was completed, I started researching Mining, because I didn't think there was anything more necessary at that point. Turned out to be a good idea, because it revealed horses within the BFC.

I let my worker improve the cows first (best yield), then the sheep (not to waste movement crossing through all the forest to get to the horses) and then I moved my worker to the horses.

Once Mining was researched, I moved on to BW (for chopping) and produced a few warriors after my worker. It worked out pretty well, because I wanted to grow to size 3 before starting the settler (using all three animal resources) and the third warrior was finished exactly when the city grew to size 3.

Now it's turn 27, I have 2 turns left in researching BW and this is what the map looks like so far:

Spoiler :

What do you think about my decisions so far? I was trying to copy some things from Lain's first Deity LP (e.g. building those warriors), but I am realising that his paranoid fog busting is really not that necessary on Monarch.

Here's what I am planning to do next:

Once BW is researched, I want to chop some forest on grassland for cottages, for which I will have to research Pottery next. Since I'm Spiritual, I will adopt Slavery right away also.

The chopping will help to finish off production of the settler much sooner. I usally build two settlers back to back, but usually that is to cordon off the AI by blocking their path with my cultural territory. In this game I haven't even found any AI and it might be the case that I'm alone on that island, so I'm not sure, if that would be a good idea. Then again, I don't have anything else to build just yet.

Now, where I definitely need advice is where to place my other cities. Usually I just go by how nice the resources are and try to fit as many as possible into the BFC, but I've seen Lain build a city with just a single fish resource and something I have never done before is share resources between cities.

One other thing I don't really understand yet, is types of cities and what to build in them and how to use citizens. So far, I have all citizens working the fields, of course.

Hope that all makes sense, looking forward to your advice!!!

EDIT: Oh, and if my screenshots give you eye cancer... please let me know what mods you want me to run and how / where to get them

 

[AcaMetis]

First off, I would recommend starting a new game from t0. Not that you made any major mistakes in terms of tech path/worker first/size 3 settler, at least as far as I can see, but your scouting seems to need work. For instance, the south-east of your capitol (unless I'm a food) is completely fogbusted thanks to culture, so that warrior on the plains field doesn't need to be there. It should be scouting for seafood along the south shore. Scouting the Tundra is also of limited value, since you're not going to be putting any cities there in the foreseeable future.

Second, as for city placement/management, being able to share food resources is important because it allows cities to work strong food tiles more often, and food is king in Civ IV . Early game you're limited by happy caps, particularly when Slavery comes into play, so place cities so that if one in on the whip timer or producing a worker/settler another can use the strong food tile to grow. As for types of cities and how to specialize them, just identify what cities are good at (or at least can do reasonably well) and don't try to make them do something else. If a city has two wet corn, five floodplains and no hills, don't try making a production city out of it, use Slavery to whip it into a GP farm. Whereas the city with two plains cows, six grassland hills and not a single commerce tile without a country mile becomes a production city that will never build a library, as it'll never run specialists and doesn't benefit from the science multiplier. Simply identify what a city has and what it can do, and only build things that'll benefit it.

 

[Simple Machine]

Not the most generous starting location! Food situation leaves much to be desired in the capitol but that's OK, we can make do. I agree with the tech path so far, it seems forced with this start. You can't work any of your food without AH and you want BW to chop those forests. Since you already start with wheel and agriculture, that means you can go straight to pottery next, which is nice

It seems like you might be isolated, and in this situation I would strongly consider getting the great lighthouse - that keeps your economy rolling while settling coastal cities and it pays off big when you meet the AIs and get intercontinental trade routes. You have lots of forest in the capitol, and are industrious, so that would be easy to get (don't want to jinx anything though! )

If you wanted to go that route, you could actually immediately tech fishing --> sailing after BW, and then settle city #2 in between the gold and cows on the coast. It will be connected to the capital via the coast bc of sailing. Then can chop GLH and spam settlers from there. Chariots for good barb defense

I agree with AcaMetis on the warrior placement - you don't need anybody to watch the east coast, but should have someone fogbusting the tundra and then another guy sitting in the forest in the middle. But honestly, I don't think barbs are going to be too big a deal here, since you have horses after all.

Definitely feel free to post a save of the start, I might like to play along

 

[krikav]

First warrior movement I think I would have done as well.
I would have postponed researching the first 5 turns (good habit) and would have had the warrior moving along the coast SW.
Would have seen nothing more, and would have commited to AH.

You mention you improved cow->sheep->horse, that is the right path even if it where not for the loss of workerturn.
The sheep yields you more food relative to hammers and should be prioritized.
Only reason to go horse first is if you want to build a settler at size2 with imp trait, or something like that.

After AH, when horses popped, I would go fishing first, I think I would aim for the clam first (SW of clam) as I would want the fish site on the hill so it reaches the river.
That clam site would be insta-connected which is always nice for the second city. It also shares the capitals cows, and can mature two grassland cottages for the capital.

I see future city spots NE of the rice on the river, this enables the rice and makes a city NW of the southern cow (SE of the southern gold) being able to borrow it once it's settled.
Later still, a city spot 1E of the western cow, so it enables the gold, and stone. Might prioritize this earlier for a pyramids play.

Looks like iso, I would go straight for optics here. No alfa, no math, just grow to happycap, cottage rivers, work gold (or rep scientists) and limit cities to 5-6.
Can't see any offshore islands, which takes some of the luster away from GLH imho. The capital doesn't call for a lighthouse and building one just for enabling GLH is costly.

 

[krikav]

Shorter and earlier turnsets is needed, to provide more valuable feedback.
Good points to post is at T0, and then possibly after settling and deciding first build. (95% of cases worker, so can skip this).
Then T5, when you have to commit to a tech.
Then when something intersting happends, or when first tech is in.

Etc etc.

 

[Hesha]

Thanks guys, so much feedback!

First off, regarding the scouting: Point taken! I think I got a little sloppy there once I new that there was nothing really to the east of my starting location and that my island is rather narrow, so I just let my warriors roam. The guy in the SE is not fogbusting, he is there because I left the E/SE of my starting location undiscovered until a few turns ago and I just sent him down there to check for sea resources, he is not stationed there for fogbusting and will move W. See, my reasoning was that other than scouting for a good location for my second city, there isn't really anthing meaningful to do with my warriors this early on, so I just had them reveal as much FOW was possible. How would you have scouted instead?

Early game you're limited by happy caps, particularly when Slavery comes into play, so place cities so that if one in on the whip timer or producing a worker/settler another can use the strong food tile to grow.

Another good point I hadn't considered. Because Slavery messes with the size of your cities, resources fall into disuse every so often, which means that another one of your cities might as well use them! Great thinking.

As for types of cities and how to specialize them, just identify what cities are good at (or at least can do reasonably well) and don't try to make them do something else. If a city has two wet corn, five floodplains and no hills, don't try making a production city out of it, use Slavery to whip it into a GP farm. Whereas the city with two plains cows, six grassland hills and not a single commerce tile without a country mile becomes a production city that will never build a library, as it'll never run specialists and doesn't benefit from the science multiplier. Simply identify what a city has and what it can do, and only build things that'll benefit it.

Okay, sounds simple enough. Is there a guide somewhere on what the most important types of cities are and what to build in them, I mean what wonders for a GP farm, etc.?

Not the most generous starting location!

Agreed! But I liked it, somehow. Probably because I was so happy with the leader/civ I was given and how it fit my location. Let's see what I can make of it.

It seems like you might be isolated, and in this situation I would strongly consider getting the great lighthouse - that keeps your economy rolling while settling coastal cities and it pays off big when you meet the AIs and get intercontinental trade routes. You have lots of forest in the capitol, and are industrious, so that would be easy to get (don't want to jinx anything though! )

If you wanted to go that route, you could actually immediately tech fishing --> sailing after BW, and then settle city #2 in between the gold and cows on the coast. It will be connected to the capital via the coast bc of sailing. Then can chop GLH and spam settlers from there. Chariots for good barb defense

That sounds interesting, I have never really used the GLH. A shame you guys don't agree on this point! But I take it, my priority should be to discover the SW of my island to make 100% I am actually isolated, right?

If I went that route and researched fishing first, I should probably place me second city in reach of one of the sea resources and build a work boat first?

Definitely feel free to post a save of the start, I might like to play along

Will do, I have attached it to this post (and also to the first one, as others might not find it here)!

I would have postponed researching the first 5 turns (good habit) and would have had the warrior moving along the coast SW.
Would have seen nothing more, and would have commited to AH.

By postponed you mean to produce gold for 5 turns and only then put the tax rate to 100% beakers? I would have never considered this! So that's what you do when you're not 100% sure what to research, even that early in the game? Just so I understand my options: What could I possibly have discovered that would have been better than researching AH?

You mention you improved cow->sheep->horse, that is the right path even if it where not for the loss of workerturn.
The sheep yields you more food relative to hammers and should be prioritized.
Only reason to go horse first is if you want to build a settler at size2 with imp trait, or something like that.

Thank you! I probably would have gone for the horses first, tbh, but it's a good early lesson to take away, to nearly always prioritise food in this way.

After AH, when horses popped, I would go fishing first, I think I would aim for the clam first (SW of clam) as I would want the fish site on the hill so it reaches the river.
That clam site would be insta-connected which is always nice for the second city. It also shares the capitals cows, and can mature two grassland cottages for the capital.

Not sure I understand this. So instead of mining and BW, you would have gone fishing? But... wouldn't that mean that a) my working would have nothing to do for a few turns (other than making roads) and b) I won't be able to take advantage of fishing for many turns to come, because I won't have a settler? I mean, I have researched mining, BW is almost done and there are many turns left before the settler is finished, I'd say I can have Fishing researched after BW and still be done around the time the settler can found a city. What advantage would there have been in researching fishing before mining/BW - just so I understand your reasoning. Or would you have built fewer warriors and started the settler at size 2?
I hope I understood you city locations correctly, is this it:

Spoiler :

I think I would aim for the clam first (SW of clam) as I would want the fish site on the hill so it reaches the river.
That clam site would be insta-connected which is always nice for the second city. It also shares the capitals cows, and can mature two grassland cottages for the capital.

I think you are a bit too fast for me here, please treat me like a dummy and explain your reasoning more I think I understand now what you mean, but it took me a while!
So, what you're saying is: The best location for the second city, which is supposed to take advantage of sea resources, would be SW of the clam, because the resource would then be in the 3x3 city square whereas the location just SW of the fish would be inferior to the tile south of that (on the hill), which has access to more resources, but this superior site cannot be taken advantage of until I have something to grow my culture - right? This is actually a really good point. In the past I was always just thinking about the BFC, not considering that my tech path may leave me unable to grow my cultural borders for many more turns!

I see future city spots NE of the rice on the river, this enables the rice and makes a city NW of the southern cow (SE of the southern gold) being able to borrow it once it's settled.
Later still, a city spot 1E of the western cow, so it enables the gold, and stone. Might prioritize this earlier for a pyramids play.

Such a learning curve here, you have no idea!!! Okay, so all these city placements are based on the 3x3 city squares. I never thought along those lines, but it makes a lot of sense to me now. Are you recommending to go for pyramids or are you just saying that IF I were to aim for pyramids, I should build that city - what? Second? Third?

Looks like iso, I would go straight for optics here. No alfa, no math, just grow to happycap, cottage rivers, work gold (or rep scientists) and limit cities to 5-6.
Can't see any offshore islands, which takes some of the luster away from GLH imho. The capital doesn't call for a lighthouse and building one just for enabling GLH is costly.

Okay! But the key point here being, is to make sure I am actually isolated, right? And straight for optics - after what? Right after BW? So in two turns I click straight on Optics and research whatever the game wants me to? I take it you mean that in a game with an isolated start it's important to meet other civs asap, so you can take advantage of that fact that you know them all, but they don't know each other and can tech trade to your advantage?

Shorter and earlier turnsets is needed, to provide more valuable feedback.
Good points to post is at T0, and then possibly after settling and deciding first build. (95% of cases worker, so can skip this).
Then T5, when you have to commit to a tech.
Then when something intersting happends, or when first tech is in.

Sorry! I did consider going back and posting only the 4000BC save, but I thought that would have been dishonest to you guys, because I already played up until turn 27 and knew what some of the tiles around my location held. But I will post in much smaller steps going forward for sure!!!!

So... based on you advice, from the point where I am right now (unless I want to go back and research fishing instead of mining as Krikav suggested), there are two paths for me:
#1 (Simple Machine) Finish BW, then research Fishing, followed by Sailing. Finish Settler, settle on [Krikav city #3] then build LH=>GLH in capital, then spam more settlers in capital. What should I build first in city #2?
#2 (Krikav) Finish BW, then research Fishing (then what?). Finish settler, settle on [Krikav city #1] to take advantage of clams, build work boat in new city. What to build in capital after the first settler?

 

[krikav]

So many questions! This is another reason why turnsets should be much more limited, easier to tackle all of the tangent questisons.

First of all, 5-turn tech.
The first 5 turns T0->T4 you can unclick the research you have up in the middle of the screen. So you have no tech selected.
Then you run 100% reseach anyway.
What happends, is that all beakers you produce are saved in some hidden box. When you then commit to a tech at the end of T5, you will start T6 with all of the previous turns allocated to the tech you choose.
It's sort of a bug, sort of intended, but it's really good. Sometimes you have one idea T0 and alot of things change when T5 comes, especially when you SiP, as that gives you the borderpop before you need to commit.



You have marked the cities I reasoned around in the right spots.
Regarding first city, I almost always want to place my second city in close proximity to capital, because if they are connected, you get +1 commerce in both cities. Also proximity enables you to settle that second city sooner.
There really isn't any ideal second city here, but I think clam is as good as it is, although there is something to be said by settling rice city first too.
Regarding workboat to clam city, I think it probably makes more sense to build that in capital, with all those natural hammers (cow, sheep, horse) and perhaps a well timed chop.
Workboat could be moving in position prior to, or right after settler.


I would go fishing first before mining. So AH->Fish->Mining->BW. I think it's more correct to go AH->Mining->BW->Fish for you here, but on higher difficulties techs are expensive, and if I go AH I'm almost always inclined to go for some economic tech before BW, as you can really hit a brick wall when it comes to economy by going for both AH and BW first.


Yes, you should make sure if you are in a iso situation before going all the way to optics. but it's rather long way there, you allways finish stuff like pottery and writing before going down IW and metalcasting, so long time to decide that yet.
Turning on tile yields help, sometimes that can make you see coastal tiles or ocean tiles with yields where there shouldn't be any and then there might be a pre-optics bridge to utilize.
Consider the tundra tile 1S of the clam, a city there could reach 2E1S which gives that tile a 2F1C yield. but that city cannot reach 2E2S, thus that tile won't have any yield at all.... Unless it's reachable from some other landmass. If thats the case, you could settle a city there and when culture expands, maybee reach the other landmass, or possibly just meet another AI.
So scouting the entire coastline and paying attention to tile yields is important to assess your situation.

Pyramids... Well, that would imho depend on if you find more happines resources or not, and if you find alot of food specials.
Low happines availability and high food availability speaks in favour of pyramids, as rep scientists are a good way to turn food into beakers and the +3 happines in 5 cities aids greatly if you are squeezed for happines.

 

[Hesha]

First of all, 5-turn tech.
The first 5 turns T0->T4 you can unclick the research you have up in the middle of the screen. So you have no tech selected.
Then you run 100% reseach anyway.
What happends, is that all beakers you produce are saved in some hidden box. When you then commit to a tech at the end of T5, you will start T6 with all of the previous turns allocated to the tech you choose.
It's sort of a bug, sort of intended, but it's really good. Sometimes you have one idea T0 and alot of things change when T5 comes, especially when you SiP, as that gives you the borderpop before you need to commit.

Cool! Definitely good to know. I will do that anymore. I take it you could do this for 6 turns as well, if you wanted to?

You have marked the cities I reasoned around in the right spots.
Regarding first city, I almost always want to place my second city in close proximity to capital, because if they are connected, you get +1 commerce in both cities. Also proximity enables you to settle that second city sooner.
There really isn't any ideal second city here, but I think clam is as good as it is, although there is something to be said by settling rice city first too.
Regarding workboat to clam city, I think it probably makes more sense to build that in capital, with all those natural hammers (cow, sheep, horse) and perhaps a well timed chop.
Workboat could be moving in position prior to, or right after settler.

I will go for the clams then, that way I make use of fishing. So I will finish my settler (maybe chop it?) then a work boat (maybe chop it?^^) - what will I build in clam city? It doesn't need a worker, so should I go for Sailing / LH?

I would go fishing first before mining. So AH->Fish->Mining->BW. I think it's more correct to go AH->Mining->BW->Fish for you here, but on higher difficulties techs are expensive, and if I go AH I'm almost always inclined to go for some economic tech before BW, as you can really hit a brick wall when it comes to economy by going for both AH and BW first.

Ah, okay. Your reasoning here being that when you do binary research, you always save up until you can afford the tech in one go and since AH and BW are both expensive techs, you'd have to save up a long time for those?

Yes, you should make sure if you are in a iso situation before going all the way to optics. but it's rather long way there, you allways finish stuff like pottery and writing before going down IW and metalcasting, so long time to decide that yet.
Turning on tile yields help, sometimes that can make you see coastal tiles or ocean tiles with yields where there shouldn't be any and then there might be a pre-optics bridge to utilize.
Consider the tundra tile 1S of the clam, a city there could reach 2E1S which gives that tile a 2F1C yield. but that city cannot reach 2E2S, thus that tile won't have any yield at all.... Unless it's reachable from some other landmass. If thats the case, you could settle a city there and when culture expands, maybee reach the other landmass, or possibly just meet another AI.
So scouting the entire coastline and paying attention to tile yields is important to assess your situation.

All those little tricks... good to know, I'll definitely turn on tile yields then! Please tell me, though, why do I want to meet other AI? In the past I would always beeline to rifling and then steamroll the AI on other continents, but I never tried to make contact before that point (stupidly, I assume^^).

Pyramids... Well, that would imho depend on if you find more happines resources or not, and if you find alot of food specials.
Low happines availability and high food availability speaks in favour of pyramids, as rep scientists are a good way to turn food into beakers and the +3 happines in 5 cities aids greatly if you are squeezed for happines.

Okay, I'll go scouting then. I guess my next update will be when I have finished fishing?

 

[krikav]

Just to show how I would think and play this start, and to show some of the tings I mentioned (5 turn wait, ocean tiles)

Spoiler To T12 :

Here I see a starting position that is coastal, but have no seafood. My inclination would be to move inland and secure more land, as to reduce risk of being boxed in by the AIs. A PH that yields a extra hammer from the capital (2F2H1C city center instead of 2F1H1C) catches my eye.
I note that there are two tiles where seafood could be present, and my warrior can reveal one of them, so I move.

Now there is only one tile left that could be seafood, and since I also already have 3 resources (spice, sheep, cow) I estimate the odds for additional resources abit lower so I make a jump.

Floodplains is nice, and since I moved I have also saved one riverside grassland tile in this capital. This looks promissing.

Next turn, I move warrior again, I spot a fish but see that there is at least one tile that is available for a city to grab that fish later, so I settle.

See the extra hammer in the city center? That makes the worker build finish in 12 turns instead of 15. And since I spent one turn moving my worker arrives 2 turns earlier. I'm one turn behind in tech with this path though, and my worker will have to move through forest to reach the animals.
Note that no tech is selected, I just end turn.

Next turn I'm prompted to choose tech, I just click anything, doesn't matter.

Then I just click up on the research bar, to unselect AH.

Like this.

Here now I'm at T5, now I need to commit.
(I can postpone more, but that would make the game commit the beakers for me, likely half beakers would be put into myst and half into AH or something.)
But up untill T5, everything is in one chunk.

Look at the ocean yields. If there would have been 1F1C on that tile I marked "No yield", that would indicate another landmass in that direction, this would tempt me to settle 1S of clam to get culture out there earlier.

AH is just finished.
The worker has _alot_ to do. At least 15 turns improving all animals and moving. But could also road to the city site by the rice for 4 or 5 turns depending on which tile one wants roaded (I think I would want the flooplains roaded here). I think I would want to farm the floodplain too, as second city only has dry rice, and capital isn't super rich in food either. Cottages can go on grassland here.

If roading+farming, the worker has work to do for 27 turns, and some options open up. I could even go super early writing if I like. But I could also go fishing->pottery->writing.
The other option is just to go the standard mining->bw, in which case I would probably go for another worker (dedicated chopper) even before the first settler.
This is likely the way to go, as there is alot riverside tiles and specials that can ensure enough commerce.

 

[Hesha]

For now I will take a screenshot every turn, just to get some in-depth feedback on my moves.

Turn 28:

Spoiler :

I moved my W warrior SE, revealing a lion, but no interesting resources. E warrior will move along the coast in a SW direction, central warrior will move SW inland. I'm really please with the timing in this playthrough! The pasture for the horses was finished just one turn before BW is finished, so I can move my working SE to be ready to chop the grasslands-forest next turn! Am I correct in prioritising grasslands-forests over plains-forests, because grasslands are more inviting for cottages?

Also, a big question I have: How agressively should I be using the whip function? Since I'm Spiritual, I can go Slavery in the next turn, should I chop+whip the settler? What's the general rule on when to whip?

So far, tile yields have not revealed any sea passages.

 

[AcaMetis]

Cool! Definitely good to know. I will do that anymore. I take it you could do this for 6 turns as well, if you wanted to?

Unfortunately not. If you pass turn 5 without having committed to a research yourself the game will do it for you. Hint: The game usually makes bad decisions. Don't let it decide your initial research for you.

Ah, okay. Your reasoning here being that when you do binary research, you always save up until you can afford the tech in one go and since AH and BW are both expensive techs, you'd have to save up a long time for those?

Binary research is useful for avoiding losing beakers/commerce to rounding errors, banking gold until you've got Libraries (or similar buildings) up and running so you get a little bit more out of your research, and for delaying having to commit to a research in case new information causes your priorities to change. As an example, say you planned on researching BW, but scouting revealed that there's no forests beyond your capitol. But there are plenty of rivers. At that point you might want to switch your research to Pottery instead, and if you've been banking gold rather than putting beakers into BW you can do so more efficiently.

Going Fishing before BW, on higher difficulties, is something you'd do because Deity techs are very expensive. Fishing allows you to work commerce tiles, which boost your research, and if you don't get some kind of tech to boost your research first you can end up having to slowly drag your way to economic techs after your initial expansion, since Deity cities are likewise expensive and will slow down your research rate.

All those little tricks... good to know, I'll definitely turn on tile yields then! Please tell me, though, why do I want to meet other AI? In the past I would always beeline to rifling and then steamroll the AI on other continents, but I never tried to make contact before that point (stupidly, I assume^^).

Tech/resource trading and establishing overseas trade routes, mainly. Any one of those individually can seriously boost your research, meaning you'll get your military breakout units that much faster, let stand all three of them. It also allows you to mess with the AI diplo, so that if one AI threatens to run away with the game you could possibly intervene.

 

[krikav]

You want to meet AIs because you want information about them, trading opportunities and start to build diplomatic relations.
You also get a small but not neglectable discount for teching techs that other AIs already know.

The AH+BW thing doesn't have anything to do with binary research, it's just that they are both costly techs and if one goes for them both early without having things like TW or fishing, then pace of expansion can easily surpass what you can afford, you end up in a situation where you can only chop more workers/settlers and everything productive you can do, end up costing you even more.
If things become dire, you need to resort to horrid things such as stop working food specials and instead work say unimproved coast... (Oh wait, don't have fishing, can't even do that!!)

Clam city will likely just build a warrior or put hammers into a barracks, just to make it able to grow.

 

[krikav]

"Am I correct in prioritising grasslands-forests over plains-forests, because grasslands are more inviting for cottages?"
Yes, that is absolutely correct.
However, if you chop away ALL 2F1H tiles, that might be a problem. These tiles are sometimes the best you have available for growth in a few situations.
But if you manage to get cottages up on these tiles instead, no problem.
1F2H plains forests are sometimes useful as stopgap mines-substitute, while just plain plains (hehe) 1F1H are almost always completely useless.
Don't overemphazise regular grassland cottages though, they are OK but they do require the initial investment of workerturns, and require the cities attention to grow. Often there are more pressing things to do this early on.

"Also, a big question I have: How agressively should I be using the whip function? Since I'm Spiritual, I can go Slavery in the next turn, should I chop+whip the settler? What's the general rule on when to whip?"

Well.. you should NOT whip away a horse tile.
I'm not sure this capital will do much whipping at all, and if it does it will be from 5->3. But even that is very iffy...
Could possibly set up this capital to remain at size 5 for most of the early game, clam city can sport some whipping with clam+cow.
Things might change if another city takes the horse.

 

[Hesha]

Unfortunately not. If you pass turn 5 without having committed to a research yourself the game will do it for you. Hint: The game usually makes bad decisions. Don't let it decide your initial research for you.

Too bad! But I'll take advantage of those 5 turns then! The fact that they do this at turn 6 seems to prove, that it is not a bug or at least a tolerated one.

You want to meet AIs because you want information about them, trading opportunities and start to build diplomatic relations.
You also get a small but not neglectable discount for teching techs that other AIs already know.

Cool. That answers a question I had, but never asked: Does the "neighbour bonus" apply only when you know the neighbours, I take it from your post that it does.

If things become dire, you need to resort to horrid things such as stop working food specials and instead work say unimproved coast... (Oh wait, don't have fishing, can't even do that!!)

How would things become dire? I... maybe I should do a deity shadow game next, so I can learn what the issues are there.

Well.. you should NOT whip away a horse tile.
I'm not sure this capital will do much whipping at all, and if it does it will be from 5->3. But even that is very iffy...
Could possibly set up this capital to remain at size 5 for most of the early game, clam city can sport some whipping with clam+cow.
Things might change if another city takes the horse.

Okay then. Let's grow to five first, then we'll see. So I guess the plan is to grow to cap and then stall growth? And that's when the cow can be shared with clam city?


So, I advanced to the next turn - quite the nice surprise it had in store for me!

Spoiler :

No big news in the W or center, but I'm pretty happy that Fishing is only going to take 4 turns and it looks like Clam City will have copper. Does this change things in any way, should I reconsider placement?

 

[AcaMetis]

Too bad! But I'll take advantage of those 5 turns then! The fact that they do this at turn 6 seems to prove, that it is not a bug or at least a tolerated one.

It's definitely a feature, as far as I know. I don't think the AI ever uses it, but human players can.

Cool. That answers a question I had, but never asked: Does the "neighbour bonus" apply only when you know the neighbours, I take it from your post that it does.

If you're talking about the discount you get when teching something that another AI knows, yes, you only get that if you've met the AI in question. If you're talking about making it cheaper to trade for a tech, I believe that only applies if the AI you're trading with has met the other AI that already has the tech. How much an AIs values a tech is partially based on how many other AIs (that they know) know the tech. It's entirely possible to check two trades, do one trade, and than have the second trade be unavailable because the tech you're trading has dropped in value since another AI now knows it.

How would things become dire? I... maybe I should do a deity shadow game next, so I can learn what the issues are there.

Deity pays a lot more upkeep for everything under the sun, and spends more beakers on techs to complete them. The combination thereof can leave you in an economic pit where, if you've ignored early economic techs too much, you're unable to research them within a reasonable amount of time and get your economy (and research) back on track. I'm sure there's at least one instance where Lain encountered that issue, though I don't recall off-hand which of his maps is a good example of it.

 

[Hesha]

Okay! Let's continue, city placement won't be an issue until the settler is finished and I won't change research until Fishing is completed, so I can scout for two more turns.

Turn 30:

Spoiler :

I've killed the lions (defensively, of course) and I've discovered (dry) wheat to the south.

Turn 31:

Spoiler :

Fishing and the settler will complete within the same turn. It just occurred to me that I might want to share with you what tiles the city works, at the moment it's the three animal resources. No noteworthy discoveres out west, as far as I can tell. Seems to look a lot like I'm isolated.

Turn 32:

Spoiler :

Discovered another cow in the SW of my island, definitely looks like I'm alone. Moved the worker NE after chopping was done, will chop there for the workboat. Should I chop somewhere else instead? Fishing will complete next turn, what should I research next? Sailing, to connect cities without roads?

 

[AcaMetis]

Sailing in this situation would actually not be needed to connect Clam City, since every coastal tile between the two will be within your cultural borders as soon as you build the city. Personally I'd go either Myst or Writing, almost certainly the latter, to get culture in Clam City and eventually hook up the Copper, but that's just me being paranoid about barbarians and wanting to get started on hooking up the metal sooner rather than later.

 

[krikav]

Ackward position of the copper, which is a superb tile with it's 1F5H yield, that makes myst rather early more or less mandatory.
One option would be to place clam city 1S, so that it has access to copper right away, and gives it power to partially build it's monument and it's workboat.
Capital would then be able to continue to spam settler/workers at size3.

Clam city as it is marked would be insta-connected even without sailing, sailing provides traderoutes between cities outside of culture.
If you are tempted by GLH, which isn't bad at all, then building it in clam city is probably the way to go, then myst->sailing->masonry makes sense.
If you make such a play, reorganizing city placement abit to ensure more cities are coastal is probably in order.

 

[Hesha]

Sailing in this situation would actually not be needed to connect Clam City, since every coastal tile between the two will be within your cultural borders as soon as you build the city.

Okay, gotcha!

Ackward position of the copper, which is a superb tile with it's 1F5H yield, that makes myst rather early more or less mandatory.
One option would be to place clam city 1S, so that it has access to copper right away, and gives it power to partially build it's monument and it's workboat.
Capital would then be able to continue to spam settler/workers at size3.

Moving Clam City 1S would mean losing access to the cows, however. Is that worth it? AcaMetis was suggesting to go for either Myst or Writing, I assume his reasoning was that Myst/Monuments do nother other than provide culture, whereas Writing/Lib would allow me to boost research as well - you don't seem to consider Writing. Is that because it takes longer? Or because it requires pottery as well?

If you are tempted by GLH, which isn't bad at all, then building it in clam city is probably the way to go, then myst->sailing->masonry makes sense.
If you make such a play, reorganizing city placement abit to ensure more cities are coastal is probably in order.

I think I want to do this, simply because I have never tried that strategy before. In terms of city placement, I guess it means prioritising the coastal cities, but not necessarily relocating cities?

Spoiler :

I'm conflicted about Clam City now. Do you think the Clams and Cow are enough to get the GLH going or do you think I definitely need the copper source? There are forests, too, so I'm not totally without hammers, even without the copper.

Regarding the other locations, I guess Fish Hill and Goldcow would still make sense, even with GLH? There could be another location, maybe N of the NW cow, 2E from NW gold? And another one N from SW cow, just SW from the wheat?

If I go for the GLH in Clam City, will I just build another settler after the workboat in my capital? Where will I settle it? Fish Hill first? Or will I make two more settles in close succession and settle them in Rice Town and Goldcow? Hmmm...

One more general question: You guys don't seem to care at all about Religion. Is that because on Deity you cannot reliably grab one of the techs first, so you just forget about it?

EDIT: Oh, also... the work boat only takes 3 turns to make... should I not chop then?

 

[krikav]

Fish Hill is coastal already.
Rice town can be moved 2S.
You can place one city 2N of the wheat on the river, which wakes up the cow, another city can be placed 2N of the cow, that will eventually reach the gold.

All things considered, it's probably best to settle clam city with clam in first ring, and wait for the copper, make sure you save all 4 forests for GLH there.
Slow-building the boat is probably good, capital has alot of hammers and it's nice to have usefull things to build while growing.

Regarding religion, yes it's basically impossible to reliable get a religion on higher difficulty, confu is iffy, judaism happens once under a blue moon.
Taoism is available most of the time if you bulb philosophy.
But most of the time, it's best to just wait untill AI contact, and get infected by a religion the AIs like. Having your own religion adds so much pain diplo-wise.

GLH requires masonry, and you get a discount for researching masonry if you have myst, so I would like to get myst earlier.
Fastest way to get GLH in clam city is probably to 2pop whip a lighthouse and then chop 4 forests. So getting both cow and clams online early to reach pop4 faster is good.
Getting copper into that city would be lovely, but maybee it comes too late with a monument? GLH adds culture in a eyeblink though.

Clam city should get a library eventually, but I would say that is after both lighthouse and granary, so it's ways of yet.
Capital could build a library before granary, but I don't see a big point doing that. I would prioritize going through pottery before venturing to writing.

Sailing->Myst->Masonry->Pottery->Writing perhaps?
Or perhaps Myst->Sailing first, with the intent of 1pop whipping a monument and getting copper online to aid with GLH build. Not sure which way is best.

Capital should make workboat, getting some food in the bar, then a worker (Sheep+horse+spice) while clamcity borrows cow. When clams is online capital can perhaps reach pop4 before finishing worker.