[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses
- Thread starter Hesha
- Start date
Fippy had the name Mylene many years ago, that was shortend to My. 
Everyone agrees on sailing.
But do what you think makes sense, if you make some action that we think are really problematic we will probably ask you to roll back.
This is your game, and you should do what you think is sensible. That makes your play stronger and that is whats important.
Everyone agrees on sailing.
But do what you think makes sense, if you make some action that we think are really problematic we will probably ask you to roll back.
This is your game, and you should do what you think is sensible. That makes your play stronger and that is whats important.
So, here we go, Turn 34:
Not much exploring left to do, I will send the W warrior north along the coast to discover the diagonal tile in case there is another island, then I will let all warriors fogbust as much as possible. Sooner or later I will need to build something more formidable or build enough settlements to keep barbarian cities from appearing.
I'm going to go with 0 research for one turn, that should generate enough cash to run the rest of Sailing on 100%.
No huts
No events
Mapsize small (because games on standard are too long and too tedious for me)
Turn 35:
Turns out it'll take two turns of no research to be able to run through sailing without a problem. The worker finished chopping the second tile of grasslands, which will finish the 2nd worker and generate quite a bit of overflow for worker #3. Will I follow that up with the 3rd settler or with something that allows my city to grow? Also, what to build in Clam City? I started a WB, was that a bad choice?
Started moving my warriors north, a bear appeared, not an issue, though.
EDIT: Was it okay to have my worker chop and not rush down and start the mine on copper the same turn the city was founded?
Spoiler :
Not much exploring left to do, I will send the W warrior north along the coast to discover the diagonal tile in case there is another island, then I will let all warriors fogbust as much as possible. Sooner or later I will need to build something more formidable or build enough settlements to keep barbarian cities from appearing.
I'm going to go with 0 research for one turn, that should generate enough cash to run the rest of Sailing on 100%.
Sorry for ignoring this question before. I am playing with standard settings, the only changes I have made are:
No huts
No events
Mapsize small (because games on standard are too long and too tedious for me)
Turn 35:
Spoiler :
Turns out it'll take two turns of no research to be able to run through sailing without a problem. The worker finished chopping the second tile of grasslands, which will finish the 2nd worker and generate quite a bit of overflow for worker #3. Will I follow that up with the 3rd settler or with something that allows my city to grow? Also, what to build in Clam City? I started a WB, was that a bad choice?
Started moving my warriors north, a bear appeared, not an issue, though.
EDIT: Was it okay to have my worker chop and not rush down and start the mine on copper the same turn the city was founded?
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Yes, you are getting the new worker(s) faster, so that will pay off later.
I think the wb outta Thebes next would be better instead of one in copper, as it should finish quickly. Copper could just build a warrior for now as you probably need another buster out there.
Current worker can move 1SE toward copper and chop that tile for new settler. Same for new worker but move 1SE of Thebes and chop that forest. (make sure thebes owns those forest tiles or the chops will go to Memphis.
Thebes can eventually grow, but there is no incentive or urgency to grow it at the moment since you have 3 strong tiles and forests to chop. Right now you are getting workers and settler pretty fast ..and scout WB. It might be an entirely different story if the sheep was wet corn and cows were pigs.
edit: i'd save the 3 forests N of Memphis for GLH
(oh..I was referring to map "type"...I now know it is Fractal..which makes sense given this start)
I think the wb outta Thebes next would be better instead of one in copper, as it should finish quickly. Copper could just build a warrior for now as you probably need another buster out there.
Current worker can move 1SE toward copper and chop that tile for new settler. Same for new worker but move 1SE of Thebes and chop that forest. (make sure thebes owns those forest tiles or the chops will go to Memphis.
Thebes can eventually grow, but there is no incentive or urgency to grow it at the moment since you have 3 strong tiles and forests to chop. Right now you are getting workers and settler pretty fast ..and scout WB. It might be an entirely different story if the sheep was wet corn and cows were pigs.
edit: i'd save the 3 forests N of Memphis for GLH
(oh..I was referring to map "type"...I now know it is Fractal..which makes sense given this start)
Okay, good!
Alright. Fippy said she might produce 3 workers, that's why I built the wb in memphis, because it won't be needed for a long time, right? Or do you mean I should send it SW to scout? In that case, it takes a while to get there from Thebes, won't that effectively add to the build time? I will do as you suggest, but I figured that whether I build a warrior I don't urgently need or a wb I don't urgently need wouldn't make a big difference. Provided I build another working in Thebes, would it then make sense to build the WB in Memphis? I just want to understand why you suggested that, that's all.
So... I just ignore the copper then? Isn't that a waste of resources? I mean, the chopping will yield the same resources no matter when I chop, but the longer I leave the copper unimproved, the longer the second city is basically worthless... or am I missing something?
I thought I'd send the two workers down to Memphis and get that copper going asap?
So I'll chop all the grasslands then? Any other tiles?
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Not that i want to interfer much with other plans, but i really like workboat in copper city before sailing allows LH.
Earlier workers mean you need less later, there will be lots of chopping for wonders and stuff, so yup i would build worker #3 in Thebes now and then 2 Settlers.
Earlier workers mean you need less later, there will be lots of chopping for wonders and stuff, so yup i would build worker #3 in Thebes now and then 2 Settlers.
Excellent! I'll pick and choose to go with your advice then
Would you suggest to pause the production as soon as LH becomes available? Or finish it?What's your take on the workers assignments then? The second chop is finished in the same turn the 2nd worker becomes available. I could have them work on the copper the very next turn, have the mines up in 2 more turns. You spoke of snowballing earlier, I thought that was what you meant, but in case it isn't - do you feel I should keep them chopping? Workers are built so quickly, it feels like wasting perfectly good forests ^^
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Finish the boat, as after LH would be GLH already and hammers decay after 10t
There are 2 helpful mines you can build (chopping first and then mining in 2 steps also an option if you want the hammers quicker),
green hill between cows and Memphis can be used by Memphis after slowly growing to size 2 (or also used by Thebes).
And Thebes can use a plains hill mine later for Pyras at size 4.
I would improve copper now before chopping, Lymos idea is that chopping first would waste no turn moving, but it's also why 3 workers are helpful.
Can afford improving a big tile first.
With chopping & mining at 7 turns needed, they should be done around the time where your new settler moves out, and 2 workers at new cities greatly improve their efficiency.
There are 2 helpful mines you can build (chopping first and then mining in 2 steps also an option if you want the hammers quicker),
green hill between cows and Memphis can be used by Memphis after slowly growing to size 2 (or also used by Thebes).
And Thebes can use a plains hill mine later for Pyras at size 4.
I would improve copper now before chopping, Lymos idea is that chopping first would waste no turn moving, but it's also why 3 workers are helpful.
Can afford improving a big tile first.
With chopping & mining at 7 turns needed, they should be done around the time where your new settler moves out, and 2 workers at new cities greatly improve their efficiency.
Turn 36:
As I said, I moved both workers workers SE to start work on the copper asap. At first the boat will be slow, but with the copper support it might just finish at the same time as Sailing, which would be great. Should I chop the LH or keep all the forests for the GLH?
Turn 37:
Got the workers to work. In times of turns lost on moving them, it's only a single turn, should be okay.
Spoiler :
As I said, I moved both workers workers SE to start work on the copper asap. At first the boat will be slow, but with the copper support it might just finish at the same time as Sailing, which would be great. Should I chop the LH or keep all the forests for the GLH?
Turn 37:
Spoiler :
Got the workers to work. In times of turns lost on moving them, it's only a single turn, should be okay.
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haven't read all the discussion since, but my point was emphasizing a early scout wb now. I think the 3rd worker is a good idea, but get the scout wb asap. It should build very quick outta thebes after the second worker, then go with 3rd worker.
Regardless, always go with My's points cause she is awesome and makes me look like preschool
edit: good question on LH vs. GLH. I'd again defer to My on that, but my logic is that you are IND so the chops into GLH are more bang for your buck. However, another point is getting the glh started in the first place, so maybe 1 chop into the LH to finish it faster..possibly a 1 pop whip as well. Not sure though as you have no food there for a long time, so staying at 2 citizens working even copper and a grass mine might be better with no food.
I think the key is probably timing LH finish to masonry finish and you still have time there, so you will probably save most of your forests near Memphis. And since those other shared forests with Thebes were not chopped earlier then they might be saved for GLH as well. Those chops will knock out GLH real fast with IND..and well, GLH is worth it on a map like this...it is an OP wonder.
edit: Oh.the deal on the workers chopping first was only partially about not wasting worker turns, really less about that although with designs on moving to copper certainly. It was more simply about chopping those forests now for faster workers or settlers. It plays into the whole more stuff sooner idea with this game for snowballs. But yeah, in this case copper is a power tile so you do want that sooner than later. But I think there is a strong argument for chopping first as well. Just really depends on the priorities and stuff.
Regardless, always go with My's points cause she is awesome and makes me look like preschool
edit: good question on LH vs. GLH. I'd again defer to My on that, but my logic is that you are IND so the chops into GLH are more bang for your buck. However, another point is getting the glh started in the first place, so maybe 1 chop into the LH to finish it faster..possibly a 1 pop whip as well. Not sure though as you have no food there for a long time, so staying at 2 citizens working even copper and a grass mine might be better with no food.
I think the key is probably timing LH finish to masonry finish and you still have time there, so you will probably save most of your forests near Memphis. And since those other shared forests with Thebes were not chopped earlier then they might be saved for GLH as well. Those chops will knock out GLH real fast with IND..and well, GLH is worth it on a map like this...it is an OP wonder.
edit: Oh.the deal on the workers chopping first was only partially about not wasting worker turns, really less about that although with designs on moving to copper certainly. It was more simply about chopping those forests now for faster workers or settlers. It plays into the whole more stuff sooner idea with this game for snowballs. But yeah, in this case copper is a power tile so you do want that sooner than later. But I think there is a strong argument for chopping first as well. Just really depends on the priorities and stuff.
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Might as well save the forests for GLH. Lighthouse doesn't do anything for you right now.
The most important thing is to not finish the lighthouse with chops prior to getting masonry.
I would have made sure the two cities was connected with two roads prior to settling, as that would yield 2C extra per turn.
After copper, one worker to the grassland hill, the other 1S of cow, to road those two tiles to fix this.
The grassland hill can be mined after that, and the other worker can go chop south of spice.
The most important thing is to not finish the lighthouse with chops prior to getting masonry.
I would have made sure the two cities was connected with two roads prior to settling, as that would yield 2C extra per turn.
After copper, one worker to the grassland hill, the other 1S of cow, to road those two tiles to fix this.
The grassland hill can be mined after that, and the other worker can go chop south of spice.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Scoutboat from Memphis, Lymo?
Without sailing yet, city needs a build anyways and copper will finish that boat rather quick too.
Re workers Hesha, you could use one for the green hill mine, one for settler chop in Thebes, and another for plains hill mine (Thebes too).
As mentioned, chop hammers for Memphis have time but 20 into LH should be fine..some gold in the bank and masonry should take maybe 5t only on Monarch?
Without sailing yet, city needs a build anyways and copper will finish that boat rather quick too.
Re workers Hesha, you could use one for the green hill mine, one for settler chop in Thebes, and another for plains hill mine (Thebes too).
As mentioned, chop hammers for Memphis have time but 20 into LH should be fine..some gold in the bank and masonry should take maybe 5t only on Monarch?
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yep, gotcha on the scout wb..was just explaining my original..now defunct...point
well, he's going sailing so roads kinda pointless between the cities there, krik. edit: but good point nonetheless for many cases where a road is needed to connect city to cap. (note: a pre-placed road to tile adjacent to tile you settle on gives insta-route)
Now, take fish city for example though. That city will be connected automatically regardless of roads or even sailing, as the cities have shared coastal culture.
well, he's going sailing so roads kinda pointless between the cities there, krik. edit: but good point nonetheless for many cases where a road is needed to connect city to cap. (note: a pre-placed road to tile adjacent to tile you settle on gives insta-route)
Now, take fish city for example though. That city will be connected automatically regardless of roads or even sailing, as the cities have shared coastal culture.
Spotting how and where trade routes occur can be rather tricky... Where clam city was located 1N it would have had connection right away, now closer to the copper it doesn't.
The fact that just 1 road could connect stone city via sailing was something that I didn't think of either.
As it happends, those two roads I mentioned will go through forests that can be pre-chopped for later GLH, so I think it makes sense to build them now, even if it only saves 2C per turn before sailing.
Pre-chopping is the practice of chopping a forest 1 and 2 times, but not the third and final time. It's a practice that saves up workerturns in advance, making ready for a burst of production in short order.
The fact that just 1 road could connect stone city via sailing was something that I didn't think of either.
As it happends, those two roads I mentioned will go through forests that can be pre-chopped for later GLH, so I think it makes sense to build them now, even if it only saves 2C per turn before sailing.
Pre-chopping is the practice of chopping a forest 1 and 2 times, but not the third and final time. It's a practice that saves up workerturns in advance, making ready for a burst of production in short order.
Thanks guys! Businesstripping now, can only continue in about 36 hours, so don't think the game is dead!
EDIT: One Q though: In Copper City I have the guys working on grasslands forest. Should they already be working on the copper regardless? I figured with 1 hammer difference, food is better for growth...
EDIT: One Q though: In Copper City I have the guys working on grasslands forest. Should they already be working on the copper regardless? I figured with 1 hammer difference, food is better for growth...
So! Back in the saddle...
Turn 38:
The copper mine is finished, the WB there is now going to be ready in 4 turns, sailing is ready in 5, so I have to figure something out there. I already checked, all it takes to make the difference is a single beaker, so not sure what to do here. I could move one citizen in the capital from horses or sheep to a coastal tile, but then the worker takes one turn longer. What do you guys think? Another option would have been to work a coastal tile instead of the forest in the turn before the mine was finished, should I have done that, i.e. should I crunch numbers to that degree in order to get things to finish at the same time?
Turn 39:
What should I have my workers do next, now that the mine is finished?
Turn 38:
Spoiler :
The copper mine is finished, the WB there is now going to be ready in 4 turns, sailing is ready in 5, so I have to figure something out there. I already checked, all it takes to make the difference is a single beaker, so not sure what to do here. I could move one citizen in the capital from horses or sheep to a coastal tile, but then the worker takes one turn longer. What do you guys think? Another option would have been to work a coastal tile instead of the forest in the turn before the mine was finished, should I have done that, i.e. should I crunch numbers to that degree in order to get things to finish at the same time?
Turn 39:
Spoiler :
What should I have my workers do next, now that the mine is finished?
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I would not worry about the speed of Sailing. You are definitely not going to remove citizens from your best tiles. It would be different if you had a fourth citizen working an unimproved tile. If your concern is finishing the wb at same time as sailing so that the LH can catch some OF, if any, then you can queue up a warrior for 1t. You can finish him later when you likely have to stall the LH while waiting for masonry.
I would road that copper now. You do not have Hunting so you can still build warriors and it may not hurt to be able to build an axe, if needed. One worker can move to grass hill to start chopping, which I think should time nicely with Sailing so you can put that 20h into LH. Remember, you can cancel worker action to make sure you don't chop too soon. If the chop should be ready before Sailing finish, you can put a turn into a mine > cancel.
Other worker can move to forest 1NW to pre-chop. New worker can move 2S to chop that forest for new settler.
If some OF is present from the finish worker in Thebes, I'd put that into a new settler. Then switch maybe to an Axeman and get a bit of growth going while the worker chops. But put the chop into the settler.
Looks like you have not installed BUG yet. One nice thing about BULL is that workers will automatically stop chops on last turn.
Edit: Actually, i would move new worker 1W of Thebes and chop that forest as the new settler will later be able to move faster that way. ha..sometimes these little things can make a big difference. In fact, you could chop all those forest 1W, 1NW and 1NW again on the tundra tile where you will actually settle fish city, which I would do next.
And actually, I would queue up a WB for growth instead of an axe now so it is ready for fish city asap...finish it after the settler completes.
I would road that copper now. You do not have Hunting so you can still build warriors and it may not hurt to be able to build an axe, if needed. One worker can move to grass hill to start chopping, which I think should time nicely with Sailing so you can put that 20h into LH. Remember, you can cancel worker action to make sure you don't chop too soon. If the chop should be ready before Sailing finish, you can put a turn into a mine > cancel.
Other worker can move to forest 1NW to pre-chop. New worker can move 2S to chop that forest for new settler.
If some OF is present from the finish worker in Thebes, I'd put that into a new settler. Then switch maybe to an Axeman and get a bit of growth going while the worker chops. But put the chop into the settler.
Looks like you have not installed BUG yet. One nice thing about BULL is that workers will automatically stop chops on last turn.
Edit: Actually, i would move new worker 1W of Thebes and chop that forest as the new settler will later be able to move faster that way. ha..sometimes these little things can make a big difference. In fact, you could chop all those forest 1W, 1NW and 1NW again on the tundra tile where you will actually settle fish city, which I would do next.
And actually, I would queue up a WB for growth instead of an axe now so it is ready for fish city asap...finish it after the settler completes.
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I'll execute your plan then ^^ So, no longer put fish hill on the hill? Settle it so the fish is immediately in range?
Regarding BUG... I'm just hopelessly overwhelmed by how to install it. And what is BULL and do I need it? There seems to be no explanation what BULL is on that downloads page you linked... I feel stupid.^^
Regarding BUG... I'm just hopelessly overwhelmed by how to install it. And what is BULL and do I need it? There seems to be no explanation what BULL is on that downloads page you linked... I feel stupid.^^
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I'm not exactly sure what My's logic was for settling on the hill. Maybe that Fish city could take the horses early for some production. But still you need a monument there to grab fish eventually. But really I think it is much stronger to get that fish running asap. City can grow fast or even just start building a worker or settler there. No need for a monument there at all. It's an immediately productive city and with an insta-trade route. City can have some cottages later as well or just farm it for Rep specialists.
BUG should be easy to install. Just down load the executable. Run as administrator by the way. It will give you options on how to install - choose SP mode (Custom Assets). Once that is installed, download BULL which comes in a zip files. Extract and read the instructions (txt file) under how to install with SP mode. It is simply copying a couple of files into the custom asset folder and putting the BULL DLL in the Assets folder. (Note: rename the vanilla DLL by adding ".original' to the end.) You don't want to overwrite the vanilla DLL.
BULL is synergistic with BUG and adds more options and features. BUG also has a neat dotmapping tool (CTL-X = on, ALT-X = Off)
Here is a pic of my Assets folder to show you how I name the files...I use a dll switcher tool so that is why you see more there, but it is just to give you an idea:
BUG should be easy to install. Just down load the executable. Run as administrator by the way. It will give you options on how to install - choose SP mode (Custom Assets). Once that is installed, download BULL which comes in a zip files. Extract and read the instructions (txt file) under how to install with SP mode. It is simply copying a couple of files into the custom asset folder and putting the BULL DLL in the Assets folder. (Note: rename the vanilla DLL by adding ".original' to the end.) You don't want to overwrite the vanilla DLL.
BULL is synergistic with BUG and adds more options and features. BUG also has a neat dotmapping tool (CTL-X = on, ALT-X = Off)
Here is a pic of my Assets folder to show you how I name the files...I use a dll switcher tool so that is why you see more there, but it is just to give you an idea:
Spoiler :
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