[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[AcaMetis]

I'm conflicted about Clam City now. Do you think the Clams and Cow are enough to get the GLH going or do you think I definitely need the copper source? There are forests, too, so I'm not totally without hammers, even without the copper.

Forest tiles are serviceable if you've got nothing better. If you're going for GLH you'll definitely want the copper.

Regarding the other locations, I guess Fish Hill and Goldcow would still make sense, even with GLH? There could be another location, maybe N of the NW cow, 2E from NW gold? And another one N from SW cow, just SW from the wheat?

Fish Hill and Goldcow are fine, since they're coastal. You could theoretically move both Fish Hill and Rice Town 1N, so you can put a (relative) junk city 3E of Goldcow and another junker 3E of that, but I would not recommend doing that. It definitely wouldn't be worth founding those cities until after you've got Astronomy trade routes secured at the very least, and it's not worth hurting your settlements very early in the BCs just to have another city worth of trade routes after Astronomy.

If I go for the GLH in Clam City, will I just build another settler after the workboat in my capital? Where will I settle it? Fish Hill first? Or will I make two more settles in close succession and settle them in Rice Town and Goldcow? Hmmm...

I think if you're going GLH the capitol should build a second worker before a third settler, to aid with chopping. After that I would probably settle Fish Hill first. Doesn't need a road, can borrow the capitol's Horse to get a Monument/WB going quickly if necessary, closer to the capitol so cheaper on distance maintenance, and it's on a defensive tile against the inevitable Tundra barbarians.

One more general question: You guys don't seem to care at all about Religion. Is that because on Deity you cannot reliably grab one of the techs first, so you just forget about it?

The lack of reliability on high difficulties is one thing, the fact that it's just not worth it is the other, more major reason not to go for an early religion. Going Myst -> Meditation first, for instance, would have set you back many turns on being able to tech AH and improving your land, growing more quickly, starting to build settlers, etc. Even if you founded Buddhism because of that detour, the benefit of +1 and +1 (in most cities, +5 in the holy city) is nice, but not that nice. The likelihood of a natural spread and bonuys culture isn't enough to allow you to settle cities like you're CRE, for instance.

Now later on, if you happen to found Taoism because of an early Philosophy bulb, that's very nice since it allows you to benefit from Pacifism and it didn't cost you anything significant. Maybe a turn of revolt to flip into it, but you're playing a SPI leader, so go figure. Early on, though, it's just not worth it.

EDIT: Oh, also... the work boat only takes 3 turns to make... should I not chop then?

You could chop directly into the settler instead, just switch production for a turn, especially if you settle the Copper and not the Clam. In that case you're not going to need that workboat immediately anyway, so there's no need to get the unit out early - there's no meaningful scouting that it can do and it'll just cost you money in maintenance (on higher difficulties, anyway).

 

[Hesha]

I'm going to provide a proper response to your posts, just one thing that I noted... Stonehenge... wouldn't that sort me out? I play Egypt, so the Monument does more than usually (Priest slots), which makes Stonehenge better (I gues). Without chopping/whipping it'd take 12 turns, I'm sure I could do it much faster.. wouldn't that be worthwhile, rather than trying to build a monument/obelisk in Clam City, which will take about as long (because I can't whip/chop)?

 

[lymond]

Great stuff! And nice collaboration from Hesha....asking good questions.

Hesha..looks like you are not using BUG/BULL mods. You can find it here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

Install as SP mode (installs in Custom Assets) and it will work for this game as well. The mods are not "loaded" in this case, but rather just present when the game loads.

What type of map is this? Looks like you've not met AIs yet unless I'm blind.

Another note on religion. AIs, or at least some, usually focus on those early religion techs anyway and they will spread them to you or you will get them via trade routes.

edit:
I don't see a need for Stonehenge here. Obelisk is nothing special. In case of clam city, you have a strong copper tile for early production. Stonehenge is rarely worth it except for some early fail gold, which can be nice with IND leader. Just put a turn or two into it after completing builds and the overflow hammers are doubled.

edit2: In that link above you can also find the Blue Marble mod if you want a little graphical enhancement. Again, it just installs in custom assets by default so no need to load nor does it conflict with other mods

 

[AcaMetis]

The big downside to building Stonehenge is that your city will be generating Great Prophet GPP when you really want Great Scientists to bulb (your way to) Astronomy. For the same reason Obelisks are kind of a non-factor for the player. It's great failgold if you can put some hammers into it, but it's not that great to build.

 

[lymond]

Another note on maps like this is that an early scouting work boat can be a good idea.

 

[Hesha]

Thanks guys! I had assumed that there was a reason why nobody builds Stonehenge and I had assumed it was the Prophets, but now I am sure

I will continue and keep you posted. I will respond to your last couple of posts in that update!!

And thanks for the praise I'll do my best to keep asking good questions!

EDIT: Which of th he mods do you recommend, there seem to be 3 different ones?

 

[Fippy]

I would settle this way:

Spoiler :

Not all cities must be coastal for GLH, if they are much better inland they should stay there
Pyras are just so good on those maps and cheap with both stone & IND, i'd want them.

This plan would also show the weakness of SH very well, Cap needs to provide settlers, workers and probably an Axe or 2 as quick as possible,
just no time for wonders that provide nothing but 30h buildings

 

[krikav]

@Fippy, copper first ey? Even if it means no clams for a while and no cow-sharing? I was thinking about that too, but tilted back toward clams.

Looking at your screenshot, it occur to me that it might be beneficial to settle city#3 on the stone. Stone city can take the gold from city#2 and build a monument, allowing city#2 to grow unhindered. Would save alot of workerturns by not having to climb and road and quarry the stone, and it would also postpone the need for worker to improve the second gold and the cow, also one less tile to road.
Would enable pyramids start way earlier.

It would also save room for more filler cities along the coast later on!

 

[Hesha]

*laughs* I think I'll wait until you guys have decided!

 

[Fippy]

Hmm..copper first saves a forest and Cap needs the cows imo, why i thought this might be better.
Settling on stone is certainly good too
Depends on the worker situation later imo.

 

[Simple Machine]

Looks like I've missed some stuff, but @Hesha, in case you didn't know a cute scouting trick is to get a chariot to 5XP and give the Flanking --> Sentry promotion. It can see three tiles of water then and sometimes you can meet an AI that way.

I like the pyramids idea too!

 

[Hesha]

Okay, here we go. These are the updated city locations as per @Fippy :

Spoiler :

Sailing->Myst->Masonry->Pottery->Writing perhaps?
Or perhaps Myst->Sailing first, with the intent of 1pop whipping a monument and getting copper online to aid with GLH build. Not sure which way is best.

This is probably going to change now? If Clam City is moved towards the copper, clams won't be in territory for a long time, because the GLH is probably the first thing to be built there, right? So do I even need to research Myst? What should the new research sequence be? Obviously Sailing first, then Masonry for the GLH and then what?

Production should change, too, I guess. What will I build now after the first settler? I guess I won't need that work boat for a while?

That Chariot-thing is pretty cool, I think I will try that.

 

[lymond]

Totally agree on settling with copper focus...while food is always a priority in most cases..the copper tile is just so strong early for production.

Settle on stone is great. I still might settle fish city first since is is so close and connected automatically and you can get fish online asap. (I would settle next to fish there with a WB ready to go from Thebes or copper city) On monarch you should have no problem getting mids anyway, which I would start building immediately in stone city itself..plenty of forest to chop.

Also, note that with Sailing you can actually connect stone city with just one road on the tile just SW...and yes, I would settle on stone.

edit: I guess there is an argument to settle stone where My indicated to get the gold running sooner. Probably a better play on Deity. (either spot can be connected with one road after sailing)

EDIT: Which of th he mods do you recommend, there seem to be 3 different ones?

I assume you are referring to the BAT mod. BAT is stanalone mod that contains BUG/BULL and some graphical mods like Blue Marble for terrain and VD for units and flavor. It is my favorite mod. By standalone, I mean the mod must be loaded to use it and would not be compatible with saves not created using the mod. BUG/BULL in Custom Assets is better for forum games since not all folks use BAT, i.e. it is more accessible (and you can use it for this game). You can certainly install both BUG/BULL and BAT and I recommend using BAT for your non-forum games (although you can post games with BAT too..some use it like me). BAT also has a few custom options install that are nice that would have to be jacked around with otherwise in BUG/BULL..like heal sentry mode.

edit: Chariot idea is ok..but my priority would be to get a WB out for scouting SW..maybe find AIs and link trade routes later would be lucrative. And you don't have time to road horse at the moment

 

[Hesha]

On monarch you should have no problem getting mids anyway, which I would start building immediately in stone city itself..plenty of forest to chop.

What are mids? Sorry...

 

[lymond]

What are mids? Sorry...

Pyramids..ha..sorry...we're so used to abbreviating stuff after years.

my next two build would be worker (with chop) and wb for scouting SW

 

[Hesha]

I have started the next move, here is the map in Turn 33:

Spoiler :

I started researching sailing, started building the work boat, if only for scouting. I fortified my E warrior to fogbust S of my territory. I moved my central warrior W, he should discover a couple of tiles next turn and I also moved my W warrior S onto the cows and what a wonderful idea that was:

Spoiler :

So... yes. I'll definitely send that work boat down there. And I guess, @krikav this makes the GLH just that little more appealing, right?

I'll finish the boat now and research sailing (unless someone tells me to build/research somethign else first) and keep you posted, will stick to single turn updates for now.

 

[Fippy]

2nd worker would be better than workboat next imo (as Lymo mentioned), so much to do.
Maybe even 3rd worker afterwards, so they can snowball and dash to new tasks.

I fully agree with a scouting boat being very nice, but workers are more important for your near future goals ~~

 

[krikav]

I would still go myst before masonry though, hard to see that there won't be any need for a monument anywhere.
In alot of cities, a 90H library just to get a borderpop is impractical or just too expensive.
And it will be a long time before the lighthouse is up.

That does look like offshore islands, or another continent. But too far away to really settle by your own. If there is an AI there though, GLH will be crazy good, intercontinental forreign trade routes are awesome.

*Edit*
And I would too want a second worker before trying to grow to pop4.

 

[lymond]

I would''ve gone worker next to take overflow (OF) and that chop...then wb for scouting. You really need that second worker asap for more choppage and to get copper online.

ha ha..as My confirmed above

yeah..I like myst too here before masonry. If anything you may still have time to put some hammers into Henge for fail gold.

edit: Note that Thebes may not grow fast right now, but you have 3 strong tiles hooked up that are well suited for building workers and settlers at Size 3 plus chopping broccoli.

 

[Hesha]

Changed to making a worker. But you all agree with researching sailing next? Also @lymond who is this My you keep talking about? Just so I know and it doesn't confuse me anymore ^^