Shaka's PH Marble Madness (Completed)

[Wrathful]

And here's the save.

 

[Swordnboard]

Looking good!

Spoiler :

I will want to wait before attacking

Not sure about this logic. Generally immortal AI get their teching in order rather quickly after contact. You have a decisive advantage for a little while with your stack of cuirs, and the worst thing you can do is have them sitting around for 100 years while you recover. May as well be active with that military, supplement with a few more as well as a few galleons, and go take some easy land. No need for full on war mode (we can grow cities mostly, adopt peacetime civics, etc.), so we can recover at the same time.

Also, I suggest sci meth->communism as the tech path after econ (and econ is only good since we get a free merchant). Distance maintenance stacks up and hammer economy will help you get all of the military tech you need to win the game. Also gets us a free great spy which is solid for a golden age.

Finally, look into your long-term happiness situation and consider getting rid of some warriors. You're spending something like 10-20% of your economy on unit cost.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Not bad.

I think you could have attacked earlier if you didn't go for liberalism, I mean 200AD astro is great and 1090AD cuir attack is pretty meh. Paper+edu+lib (+5k) to get Mil Trad (+3k) is not worth it. OK, bulbable techs but you could also run a golden age (plus another one via Taj much earlier). Guess it's possible that you won't get even guilds via trade in time, but still... Getting more cities earlier is worth quite a lot.

Maybe going for cuirs was an overkill in the first place?

 

[Wrathful]

Spoiler Feedback :

Not sure about this logic. Generally immortal AI get their teching in order rather quickly after contact. You have a decisive advantage for a little while with your stack of cuirs, and the worst thing you can do is have them sitting around for 100 years while you recover. May as well be active with that military, supplement with a few more as well as a few galleons, and go take some easy land. No need for full on war mode (we can grow cities mostly, adopt peacetime civics, etc.), so we can recover at the same time.

I'll take a look at what Cyrus has and prepare to attack him. Then I can go after Qin.

Also, I suggest sci meth->communism as the tech path after econ (and econ is only good since we get a free merchant). Distance maintenance stacks up and hammer economy will help you get all of the military tech you need to win the game. Also gets us a free great spy which is solid for a golden age.

Mansa got Econ before he died so that shouldn't give a free great merchant. At least I think that's how it works. I will head straight for communism.

Finally, look into your long-term happiness situation and consider getting rid of some warriors. You're spending something like 10-20% of your economy on unit cost.

Happiness seems good in my original six cities. It's the new ones that mightbe problematic. I will shuffle around my warriors and probably delete some.

I think you could have attacked earlier if you didn't go for liberalism, I mean 200AD astro is great and 1090AD cuir attack is pretty meh. Paper+edu+lib (+5k) to get Mil Trad (+3k) is not worth it. OK, bulbable techs but you could also run a golden age (plus another one via Taj much earlier). Guess it's possible that you won't get even guilds via trade in time, but still... Getting more cities earlier is worth quite a lot.

Yeah, that might have been simpler and easier overall. I think the Guilds trade came early enough for this to work.

Maybe going for cuirs was an overkill in the first place?

I didn't see any other way to kill him. He got castles early. Knights don't stand a chance. Trebuchets might work but it's a slow, painful slog. Bombarding defenses, one movement units... Cuir war was lightning fast. Just took too long to start. Producing the cuirs and waging war was no problem; I had trouble getting the tech quickly.

Spoiler To T187 :

I built lots of AP buildings. Not sure if this is worth it. The monasteries will become obsolete with Scientific Method. Capital mostly built wealth, a few cuirs.

Mansa appears to have workshopped the vast majority of tiles in his capital. Only a few towns there. I will replace most of the workshops with farms and cottages.

I revolted to Free Religion, improving AI relations, boosting research slightly, and giving a bit of extra happiness. With lots of luxury resources coming in I have disbanded most of my warriors.

Greece may be pursuing a Cultural victory. He's light years away from it, however.

Glad I didn't go for Econ. Everyone's switching into Mercantilism.

Cyrus has a somewhat formidable stack:

I don't really want to deal with that. I'm sure Qin has something similar (or better).

I think I'll actually stop here. How do I deal with this? Land near Tarsus, and try to bait him into moving his stack onto open land? Even if I kill that stack he has plenty more units. Well-promoted thanks to Charismatic. Need more Cuirs.

Need to attack quickly before those units get upgraded.

How would you say recovery is going? Am I building the right buildings? Whipping too little/ too much? How are my worker actions?

 

[Swordnboard]

Spoiler Not sure we need to keep using spoilers, but... :

How do I deal with this?

Wait for a little while. Qin is plotting war (he has enough on his hands right now), and will likely DOW Cyrus shortly. Hopefully they will crash some units against each other, and you can swoop in and clean up.

Some potential goals for the future:

Attempt to hit friendly relations with one or more AI. Pericles seems like a good candidate. Once you can trade for constitution, snag that and adopt representation for wisely chosen civics bonus. Also might be wise to start gifting him a few surplus resources you aren't using. This would be good for an AP victory (which you could pull off right now if you wanted, but kinda cheesy), a later UN victory, or just staying in the tech game by being able to trade for monopoly techs.

Whip together a better military. You are working tons of useless coast and ocean tiles that would be better off whipped into cuirs. A little bit of bombardment or collateral would help you a lot, so if you can't trade for chemistry between now and communism I would research chem->steel next, with the goal of building a fleet of frigates and a few cannon. And honestly, Cyrus's stack has lots of junk and siege, and doesn't look all too formidable to me, so once he is distracted by another war you should be able to roll over him.

Some other random critiques:

You have lots of dubious buildings. Aqueducts are terrible, yet you've built them almost everywhere. Courthouses are dubious as well. Your most expensive city currently only costs you 14 per turn. So you are investing 120 for 7 per turn, which is a really slow payback rate. To make matters worse, state property will chop off about 2/3 of that maintenance, bringing the courthouse return closer to 3 per turn, which is just atrocious.

How did Frederick beat you to the Taj? I assume you were first to nationalism by quite a bit (at least among the AI who aren't dead yet). Perhaps you needed to start earlier?

Finally, Re: workshops. Those improvements are about to get a lot better with state prop + chemistry. New cottages are really bad at this stage, so I definitely wouldn't bulldoze workshops for them. Farms are OK, especially since we'll reach biology in not too long.

 

[Gumbolt]

Time to cheese out? Spread your religion to each AI and keep them all happy. Shared civics. gifted techs. 1270ad cuirs is a bit late. You had astronomy 200ad or so.

Not sure what your plan for some of the larger cities. Farms are okay but don't provide much commerce.City builds are random. No Heroic Epic? What have you been building instead?

You need to learn how to chain units via galleons or this war could be painful. Also if you plan to war you need to be 100% behind this. Right now you are barely building any cuirs. 10-12 cuirs won't be enough for the Ai here. You would need 20-30 cuirs before you start any war. You will need to be building 4-5 more cuirs per turn to help with losses. If you are not quick enough the AI will have frigates soon. Hence why I suggest AP route. That or rifles and drafting units.

You need a plan to actually win this game. Right now I don't think you have one.

 

[Wrathful]

Great feedback everyone!

Spoiler Feedback :

Looks like the general consensus is too many buildings and not enough units. I also need to whip more. Cottages are bad at this stage. I will replace those with workshops.

AP cheese seems...cheesy. I would rather win UN I think. AP might be faster but it seems like a cheap way to win the game. I don't really care about win date that much. Just winning the game is enough for me.

I think it's more impressive to win a harder game with a later date than an easier game with an earlier date. (Not saying that this particular game I'm playing is hard, it's probably easy).

Will work on relations with Pericles. However, if I adopt Representation Gilgamesh won't like me anymore (no more shared civic bonus).

I should have really prioritized the Taj Mahal.

I hadn't thought about heroic epic. I will get started on that immediately.

Chemistry after Communism sounds good.

Spoiler To T192 :

Qin does appear to be preparing to attack Cyrus.

China has more units, but Cyrus would be defending. I would say heavy casualties on both sides. Please declare next turn Qin. What are you waiting for?

I got the constitution trade after all.

Once I get Communism in 10 turns or so I will switch into Rep + State Property.

It's looking very likely that Pericles will be friendly. Frederick too. Once I conquer Cyrus + Qin I should be good to go for UN victory. Hope Pericles goes down the Mass Media line and builds the UN.

T192: Like clockwork, and as predicted by Swordnboard, Qin declared on Cyrus.

I have 13 cuirs on that continent right now. More on the way. Cyrus is three techs away from frigates. His stack should be heavily damaged by Qin.

I think I will declare in three turns or so. I want to see what Cyrus does. Six more cuirs will arrive by then.

Or should I just go for it now?

 

[Gumbolt]

Thoughts.

Spoiler More thoughts :

Fair enough on AP. Maybe too easier win.

The AI are moving onto more advanced units now. You have just gifted Greeks cuirs and muskets.
Sumerians likely have grenadiers now. Could also have frigates.

The problem with warfare now is cost of capturing cities on other continents.

If you galleon chain the units they should of been there last turn. So you can move the units from ship to ship assuming the ships are on the same tiles. It works a treat.

If you plan to attack Cyrus see what Qin does. Cyrus has castles. So Qin's stack will just sit outside his capital. Unless Cyrus attacks it. Either way you need to be wiping one of them out. See who is more appeal person. 13 units versus Cyrus capital looks tough right now. Those 6 new units next turn will be very useful.

 

[Wrathful]

Sorry about the delay everyone. I would have updated earlier but the game crashed while I was playing...that killed my enthusiasm a bit. But I don't want to abandon my third game in a row here.

Spoiler To T200 :

I dowed Cyrus on T194 and took Tarsus the turn after.

Cyrus used all his siege on Qin's stack. Qin retreated back to his city.

Ectabana fell on T196. On the same turn I attacked Cyrus's capital. I had 17 cuirs against his 9 defenders. A few of them were wounded, some had poor promotions. Had good combat rolls and took his capital, losing 3 cuirs.

The city has three settled Great Generals, a great prophet, a great scientist, and the Temple of Artemis. And some basic infrastructure left over.

T199: Pasagardae falls. Captured four workers. The city has Mausoleum and an academy.

Scouting out Qin a bit.

Gah, this would be hard to take. Loads of CG3 longbows on a hill. Then again, I have lots of cuirs.

Would be nice to kill Qin and eliminate all my unit costs in the process.

T200: Lots of stuff happening this turn. Got Communism and collected my free Great Spy. Need one more GP to start a golden age (which would be very nice since I have Mausoleum).

Four units guarded Cyrus's last remaining city. Luck allowed me to take it with no losses.

Now the question is: should I dow Qin right at this very moment?

There's his stack. I could easily wipe out his siege + some other units. Cuirs have a "flanking" attack which I believe applies here. Gordium is also weak. I could take that as well.

I have around 40 cuirs on that continent. My instinct tells me to attack now.

It's also time to switch civics around. I will adopt State Property (obvious), Representation (get Pericles to friendly) and maybe Caste System (improve workshops further, run specialists in Timbuktu to get a Great Person for golden age).

Pericles is going for Scientific Method. Hope he beelines Mass Media and builds the UN.

Is it worth it to settle this island?

How about the Kremlin? I have stone. Could build it in my Capital in 11 turns. But that wouldn't make much sense if I switch to Caste.

 

[Gumbolt]

Looks good. I would let the units from Guang leave the city before any attack on it. Take out his mini stacks and attack his weakly defended cities. Head for his capital.

Greeks will soon have rifles. He won't declare at pleased. Only AI left that will declare at pleased is Qin/Sumerians. Sumerians would most likely attack Germans or Greeks.

I can see a war between Greeks/Germans with Sumerians.

If you are going UN you want at least 25% of and and pop? I forget the exact mechanics.So wiping out Qin is a good plan. A vassal only complicates Ai attitude towards you. This also helps you with land and pop.

 

[Wrathful]

Spoiler To T213 :

I had a lot of things to sort out at the start of this turnset. First I considered the diplo situation. Pericles will be friendly with me once I adopt representation. Frederick will be harder to get to friendly. My plan is to dow Qin and bribe in Frederick with Scientific Method. I have no reservations about trading this. Pericles is going for it himself and Qin and Giggles are light years behind. Shared war bonus should be enough to get him to friendly. With those two on my side and Qin's land I should have everything I need to win UN.

Gilgamesh declaring war on me is something to consider. He will drop to cautious when I switch out of Hereditary Rule. However, he lacks Optics. He is also annoyed with Pericles. Since Pericles is a land target, Gilgamesh will likely go for him. Pericles might bribe in Frederick somehow, and then I might declare on Giggles, securing friendly relations with the other two.

I will switch to State Property, Representation, and Caste System. Tech will go Chemistry (build frigates) > Biology.

Next I decided how to deal with Qin. Guangzhou is his only hilltop city. He has a stack of longbows there. I imagine they were placed there because he was at war with Cyrus. Since he is no longer at war, he might move them off next turn. I will wait a turn and see what he does. His stack of siege is on a tile that does not have a road. So they can only move one tile this turn.

Just have to kill all those longbows somehow and then he's finished. I can hit his weakly defended east and quickly capture his capital. I will not capitulate him.

T201: I am the wealthiest of the five civs left in the game.

Like clockwork, Qin moved all his units around.

He consolidated his stack, moving his siege and wounded units further from his territory. He also moved many longbows off of Guangzhou.

I couldn't find his longbows. I thought for awhile about moving another cuir into his territory to look for them. Then I saw something odd.

He moved them right next to my giant stack of cuirs!

I declared on him and wiped out both stacks.

I moved into his eastern territory. My units in the west will need to heal before I can attack there.

I made this trade:

Pericles is going for it so I'm sure Frederick would have gotten it soon anyway. I have to keep the war going for at least ten turns to build a permanent +1 diplo bonus.

As soon as I made the trade he became friendly. Excellent...

I decided to give the tech to Pericles as well. I got some cash for it. Frederick might have traded for Divine Right (AIs get ridiculous trades sometimes). Getting Pericles closer to Mass Media is okay in my book.

T202: I took Bactra with a few losses.

I decided to give Pericles Communism for Replaceable Parts. Boosts production from my windmills and gets me closer to Rifling. I also would like it if he switched out of Mercantilism.

Germany has Rifling. I am friendly with him. Next turn I might be able to get Rifling for Communism...

I will put a turn into Rifling just in case.

T203: Frederick was willing to trade Rifling, but he wanted 345 gold. I will wait another turn. It's more cost efficient to spend gold on research than pay him.

T204: I obtained Rifling from Frederick.

I will upgrade Cuirs to Cavalry. Should be very cheap to do so.

The trade also gave me +1 "You have shared your technologies with us".

I also took Guangzhou this turn.

T205: Giggles begs Constitution. I can't give it to him because it would anger Pericles. This is a beg, not a demand, so he shouldn't start plotting on me.

T206: Took Gordium. The Cavalry units are doing good work.

T207: Wiped out a bunch of units in Shanghai. I was two units away from capturing the city this turn.

T208: Took Shanghai. Chinese revolt occurred in Bactra at 3% chance. Hadn't checked for that last turn...The most annoying thing about the revolt is that my four units there were damaged.

T211: Qin is down to three cities now. Friendly Pericles switches into State Property (yay) and Emancipation (nooo).

T212: Frederick got Physics. He might go for the UN himself. I finished Chemistry and will head for Biology next. Workshops are effectively iron mines now.

Gilgamesh declared war on Pericles. He got Military Science, so he could do some damage. I will monitor the action and bribe him off if I have to.

T213: Giggles may have bitten off more than he can chew...he lost a city to Pericles. Well, I won't stop the war yet.

I finished off Qin this turn. I now control 28 cities and should get Biology in 7 turns or so. My population should skyrocket as all of Qin's cities come online.

Frederick would form a defensive pact with me. I'll probably do it. Then I can delete most of my military to save cash.

I don't plan on any more wars. I could certainly win Domination here, but I prefer a peaceful UN victory to end this game. Grinding down the other AIs with cannons, rifles, and cavalry would be very tedious.

 

[Gumbolt]

Good write up.

Looking good. If you want to have some fun declare on Gilga and bribe Germans in.

You might want to run EP slider a bit so you can see Gilga's power graph.

 

[Wrathful]

Update to the end.

Spoiler To T248 :

I decided to form the defensive pact with Germany. After that, I disbanded some units.

I discovered that defensive pacts lower relations with other AIs by 2. Pericles dropped to Pleased. I didn't know about this when I signed the deal.

I tech traded with impunity as the game reached its end.

I beelined Mass Media and built the UN myself. I workshopped almost every tile in Timbuktu's BFC. Even the corn farm was replaced (not shown in screenshot).

It was fun to see the huge production numbers. Keep in mind, this place doesn't even have factories/power yet...

Gilgamesh took two cities from Pericles then peaced out. Wimp. Greeks got cannons, guess Giggles got scared.

They say it's not over till it's over, and this game had one last challenge for me. Pericles switched into Universal Suffrage at one point. Not sure why he did this. I thought that AIs always stayed in their favorite civic. Regardless, he dropped to pleased.

I ran against Frederick after the UN got built. It was a pretty tight race. I won Secretary-General easily, but the actual victory was much closer. I bribed Pericles to switch back into Representation four turns before the deciding vote of the game. To my surprise, the shared civic bonus immediately gave +3 relations. Another peculiarity of diplomacy in this game.

1685 AD saw the UN's first and final decision.

And the result:

A bit close but still good enough.

Spoiler Game Summary :

Produced 67 cuirs, 16 cavs, 12 horse archers, 12 galleons, and 24 warriors. Killed 62 longbows. Lost 38 cuirs and 5 cavs.
130 farms and 58 workshops at the end.

There were interesting decisions to be made at the start of the game. I played peacefully and expanded to six cities, trading with Mansa, teching Monarchy, and then heading straight for Astronomy. There were some problems but, for the most part, the early game went well, and I bulbed Astronomy by 200 AD. Mid-game I had some problems - I wasn't able to finish off Mansa until 1190 AD. From there I eliminated Cyrus and then Qin, using cuirs and later some cavalry. The end game had a few hiccups, but there wasn't much to stop me from winning a Diplomatic victory by 1690 AD.