She-Wolves of the Caribbean

[Cam_H]

Not happy with #84 ... try "Cam - Dotmap looks good." in #81 then!

The Horse is a very important tile. One of the few producing tiles (and self-supporting) in a poor landscape.

I'm not following you on "another decent city up north" ... as per above, I can't download your game right now, so I'm not 100% sure if I can see what you see beyond your screenshot.

So basically the maps are almost the same, seeing that even in the old map you can put your (crappy) coastal city there anyway. The difference is therefore the placement of the north city, where in the old map you get Pigs and fresh water Lake, and on the proposed one, you don't.

 

[vranasm]

@cam

As I see it, the horse+2x wine spot lacks 1 very important thing and that is food and I am sorry, but lake with LH (which has non-trivial cost with this leader) doesn't cut it for me. The city will be very slow grower and I am really not sure we can place 6th city as slow growing.

That's why I suggest 6th city with quick growth potential (1st ring pigs wherever we place them).

Don't forget that monument needs 10T for border pop after you finish it and you need 22 food (am I correct?) to get to size 2 for whip if you don't get 30 hammers sooner then 22 food it is on 2F tile still 11 turns and we look at 21 turns before the city gets to its good tiles (and they will probably be not improved)!

Maybe this discussion is academic, since I don't know if I will produce 2 settlers in my turnset, but still if I want to preroad for quicker settler movement I need to know the direction.

@lymond

ok I can see us going with the middle wine as suggested from beginning. I don't know why I thought there is bigger overlap on those hills.
At least that city spot we all agree to .

 

[Cam_H]

It does lack a food resource and will be slow growing - I agree. However pre-Civil Service it can still work the Lake and get a Farm up (2 for city centre, 2 for Lake + Farm) which will allow for slow but sufficient growth where it can quietly grow numerous Cottages on Grassland tiles. Civil Service comes along, and more Farms are possible. It's coastal, and as you guys keep telling me, The Great Lighthouse's will keep things moving along nicely. Sure - its poor whipping potential could be something that you might have to come to terms with vranasm . You can also chop a Forest for that Monument and make way for the Farm off the Lake.

As noted above, in the original dot-map you can still work that 'seemingly irresistible' Pigs-Desert-Desert-Desert-Mountain-Desert-steal Horses-Desert Hill-Coast-Coast-Lake-Coast-Plains-Plains-Plains site.

The order of which city gets founded isn't something that I have passionate views about. The triple-Wine site looks good for one of the next two. I'd go for the double-Wine Horse site after that, but I might be on my own on that one.

I'm guessing that we're abandoning thoughts of settling on the Jungle-covered Banana island? Yes? No?

 

[lymond]

As noted above, in the original dot-map you can still work that 'seemingly irresistible' Pigs-Desert-Desert-Desert-Mountain-Desert-steal Horses-Desert Hill-Coast-Coast-Lake-Coast-Plains-Plains-Plains site.

Cam - You forgot the high-yield Peak tile

But seriously V, Cam makes a good point. Bottom line is there is some really awkward land on our continent so some city sites will simply be marginal in the beginning but we will get trade routes and some production. Also, I don't think either one of us has made statements about the order of cities. But thinking about it, I agree that Trois Vins is probably the next logical site due to proximity to cap. I think with having the land mass to ourselves - for some time hopefully - we have the luxury of settling cites fairly close to the cap at first unless we are settling for a specific resource like we did with the copper.

I'd give thought to the Pigs/Clam site next to the copper site soon if we get IW somehow by then, but only if.

 

[vranasm]

@cam

well the island is mostly jungle. I noted on it in the plan that I don't like to make all jungles city even if it will bring 6 commerce to empire. The same goes for pigs+clams city (pigs under jungle).

But I am very open to suggestions. I would like to have some agreement on city spots for the TS I make. Or else I will just build the 2nd settler and leave him for next TS decision. It possibly can end that way anyway, since the plan is to play 10 turns and I think I will not whip the 2nd settler, only the 1st one in north city (since it is already unhappy).

I see it as we all agree on tripple wine spot as next. and 6th city is undecided. We just can't get to consensus as evident .

________

ok after looking at it a bit deeper and thinking. I will use the worker for chopping the 1NW forest near the lake and build there farm instead of roading and we will go with horse+2x wine city. It's not the best of the world, but it's doable this way.
I will use the southern worker for not roading in the north but chopping the city tile of horse+2x wine city

 

[Cam_H]

Cam - You forgot the high-yield Peak tile

I think it was because I'm stunned by the true awesomeness of that site! Like it's gnarly and wicked, like, at the same time!

I think Triple-Wine and then Double-Wine+Horse is a masterstroke vranasm!

 

[BobRoberts]

Think after this we might need to name the DW+H site after Cam? There's got to be a good piratical twist we can use?

FWIW, I like the dot maps!

I'm also curious about the Jungle island city. On the upside, it pushes our territory out and it should produce some strong internal trade routes. On the downside it's a crappy island full of jungle, we'd need to spare some worker turns + transport to make it worthwhile. Post Iron Working? Never?

On the earlier mention of youtube - no onjections from me. Be cool to see.

 

[Cam_H]

"Cam the Silvertooth Whiner"?

YouTube .. this set ... are you sure??? ... No objection from me either.

Note!

When too many SG's aren't enough ... The Sword of Osman is open for sign-ups if you can cope with Warlords.

 

[nocho]

Ups, seems I stirred something up by proposing another site for the pigs, as innocent as that proposal was. Admitteldly I never really looked very closely to the western part of the island yet nor the dotmaps. After looking a bit more I still think 1S is slightly better than 1SE and honestly don't see the overlap as an issue at all. May actually be a blessing. In any case, don't feel very strongly about it either, so 1SE or 1S, whatever you guys want.

 

[vranasm]

I played the turnset. I think it was going ok, but there was some improvisation needed due to barbs.

We met 2 more AI's. And it's clear going Alpha is out of picture. Luis was in WHEOORN at the meet time! I hope he targets Joao (worst enemy)

I teched myst->writing and then banked gold for 10 turns of 100% slider since it wasn't clear which path we get (we can get Aesth in 7T).

With scout galley I found the AI's and opened borders for good commerce. Didn't took the resource trade from Joao (he has open furs for us).

There seems to be big hate between Joao and Luis, so we really should be careful. Confu seems to be dominant religion on the other continent.

I settled only the wine city, didn't get out the 2nd settler from cap, since I prefered at one point finishing chariots over growth, since the situation was dangerous.

There popped Barb city on our continent, in a bad way a bit, but close to the deer and pigs spot.

I will add video link later.

Turn by turn report

Spoiler :

T0 - readjust some things acording to plan

T1
Joao pops Christianity, I confirmed with EP screen that he has neighbours

T2
Joao gets writing and wants open borders
I accept

Spoiler :

we meet Willem i forgot to take SS

T3
myst finished, start writing
Joao gets Alphabet tech screen

Spoiler :

there popped barb archer heading to capital, I readjust chariots, the north one goes help in cap, capital will finish the chariot at size 4 instead of growth on hammer tiles

T4
Willem gets Alpha

Spoiler :

I open borders with willem to get access to his land and more commerce

T5
Willem demands Mysticism from us. I accept, no big harm for 10T peace

Spoiler :

barb archer is in our borders I don't attack with fresh chariots and decide on guarding pigs

T6
writing is home -> prequeued aesth, but start to bank gold
barb city pop in the north!
Fish stench 2 pop whip settler -> granary (we could library, but granary was arranged)
Two pot house whip monument

T7
Meeting Luis, WHEOORN!

Spoiler :

I open borders with Luis for even more commerce and scouting

Spoiler :

We could take some trades with Joao, but I opt for not to

Spoiler :

T8 zzz

T9
I kill barb axe which spawned from the barb city in the open field and generally just finish the turnset

final land overview screens

Spoiler :

edit:

hmm youtube tries to tell me that the upload will run for 4 hours!! grrr that way I would have to let it run through night :-( will update the link tomorrow morning then... but maybe it will catch up and will do in 1h40 as promised at start!

 

[Cam_H]

I've taken a lightening quick glance, and it appears like you did some very nice work vranasm.

Isn't that Barbarian city exactly where we want our own to go?

I guess we should be preparing for The Colossus (MC bulb) ... Wench's Inlet (extra :Great Merchant points on top of The Great Lighthouse's) or Peg's Legs' Bush (fair haul?).

Best of luck with the YouTube thing.

 

[lymond]

It appears the Barbs like your dot map over mine, Cam? ........

yeah, I'd like to stack up those GM points, if possible

 

[vranasm]

grrr the youtube upload crashed over night! have to start it from scrap... I hate it sometimes I hope it will upload now that it's a bit more quiet here.

ha! it is up!

Video to be found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6vOL3LgAqE

 

[nocho]

Guess it looks good, I hope to look at the save and the video later today...

Seems I'm up, so got it. Should be able to play tomorrow or Saturday.

Will get out a more detailed plan later, for now some loose thoughts/questions to start discussing about.

- You seem to be all pretty hot about bulbing MC with the GM, right? I'll do that then, though personally I might have used him for a trade mission. If we bulb MC I'll immediately start forge/Colossus in the capital (supposing we have sufficient military by now to keep the barbs in check). Well, first get that settler out still.
- Tech: aesthetics. I assume it mainly serves as a trading chip to get alpha, IW, monarchy etc? No marble, so I guess we shouldn't be too bothered about aest/lit wonders. What do we want to tech after aest? Still literature? Or better currency? Need to trade for alpha/math for that.
- Where do we settle next? 1S of the pigs? Not sure if the heated debate regarding that spot has been settled yet. 1S with respect to 1SW has the added benefit now that we might be able to culture flip the barb city...
- Probably make another settler, will accept suggestions about where to send it.

Will say something more qualitative about city builds, worker stuff and other micro when having seen the save.

 

[vranasm]

I am for the bulb. MC is 14 turns of full research at current speed. Aesth is 7T and it's for trading purposes, because we got beaten to Alpha by 2 AI's.

You should have enough money for 10T full speed tech.

I would like you to finish the granary AND library in northern city and hopefully run some scientists at the end of your TS.
The south most city should run settler after worker imo.

I think the plan was to settle the city spot 1SE of horses with the lake, the place was already chopped and there is worker 1NW of lake which will chop the forest next turn and you can start on farm.

As to the techs, I feel it would be natural to go for Currency after Aesth, so you should full tech Aesth, invest some beakers into Alpha and then start with Currency after Backfilling the techs.

With IW home the Island is worth the thought!!

Monarchy is good tech for us too .

 

[BobRoberts]

MC Bulb does seem a great idea to me. Colossus does seem to make a lot of sense with the setup, cities and copper.

Monarchy would be good, are we aiming to trade for it?

I was idly wondering if there's anything to be learned from our neighbours espionage spending, do they know anyone else?

 

[nocho]

I think the plan was to settle the city spot 1SE of horses with the lake, the place was already chopped and there is worker 1NW of lake which will chop the forest next turn and you can start on farm.

I have not been very active in the settling discussion, so forgive me for asking, but why on earth would we settle that place next? It's extremely marginal, has nothing special going for it, as we already have horse and wine, seems to have an awful lot of overlap with other cities, so to me it screams: eventual backfill-spot.
That pigs spot, be it 1S or 1SE, makes much more sense to me. Or even the spot west of the southern city, especially since likely we get IW soon enough to chop that jungle (is it?) from underneath the pigs there. Either spot will contribute much sooner.

 

[Cam_H]

"Hey - you look after Maple Sporks ... I'll look after this baby. Capisce?"

"Marginal"???? ... it's the only unsettled spot on the island with Grassland - cottage heaven! And it's coastal."

 

[lymond]

Well, there's a lot of marginal spots on this land mass so I guess much debate could be had about where to settle. Ultimately Pig/Clam is going to be a very nice site but not until IW, so I suggest we get up sites now that can actually do something. Horsey Lake or Piggy Desert work for me. The Pig site probably has a little more going for it simply as it has Way more food.

Well, if we bulb MC I'm not sure we really need Aesths since we can eventually trade it around for what we need. Alpha/Currency would be nice with an emphasis on Currency to boost the GLH.

 

[nocho]

"Hey - you look after Maple Sporks ... I'll look after this baby. Capisce?"

"Marginal"???? ... it's the only unsettled spot on the island with Grassland - cottage heaven! And it's coastal."

I would suggest we both look after both games!

If we want cottages we better settle that spot east of the capital, at least those are riverside. But I'll comply with settling this rather marginal cottage heaven if you prefer. It'll take ages though to make it decent... With Colossus a city with a lot of coast will be much better than this one for the coming, what, 100 turns at least.

@vra, started looking your video on my iphone... Nice work! Also nice you call us "very good" players. Oh, my silly username is not pronounced "nogggo" or "nojo" as it would be trasliterated in Spanish. The "ch" should be like how people say "czech republic" or "chopsticks" or whatever... I know, completely irrelevant, but I thought I'd mention. You should also pronounce "Cam_H" as "Pyramidophile".