Sheaim Society

[das]

It occurs to me that the Sheaim are a very strange faction, inasmuch as they start out as basically an union of evil cultists from everywhere (or this is, at least, what I have been able to discern). This makes sense early in their history, when they are basically a tribal city-state led personally by Tebryn Arbandi or Os-Gabella. But in most games, given time, the Sheaim would expand into a sizable empire and evolve into a more advanced society, at which point they attain a dual nature of a doomsday cult and a normal human empire (by FFH standards, ofcourse). It seems unlikely that every single citizen of the empire, even excluding such marginals as slaves, foreigners, outcasts, bandits and followers of Good or non-state Neutral religions (those groups are likely to overlap quite often, I think), would be a cultist hell-bent on attaining great power and destroying the world. The average citizen might pay homage to their leader, his/her noble goal, Agares and the founders of the Ashen Veil, but I doubt that he himself would actually want to speed up the end of the world any more than a lay Medieval Christian would be eager to live in the End Times, good though what follows them might be (incidentally, dare I assume that some sort of a rapture is involved for those who follow the Ashen Veil after the world ends? Or at least an ascent to demigodhood in the cosmos beyond the Creation or some other such rewards. One would think that this much would at least be promised).

So, basically my question is - what is the relation between the Sheaim ideology (and the government, which presumably is at least formally committed to ending the world) and society? And what does Sheaim sociey look like when it's more than just a city full of ambitious evil-minded outcasts from all over the world?

There are several models that occur to me:
1) Rome. The descendants of the original Sheaim members enjoy all kinds of additional privileges and are directly connected to the cult, though levels of commitment and interpretations might vary. The others are considered plebes, and are not considered important - they might very well practice old pagan beliefs, or a popular (vulgarised) version of Ashen Veil, or even other religions, what's important is that they remain there to provide taxes, sacrifices and cannon fodder. They are not directly involved in destroying the world, in fact that is something of an exclusive club. Upward social mobility is possible in case of outstanding achievements;
2) Sparta. Somewhat similar to the above, but much more rigid. The members of the cult other than the leader are, at least officially, equal, and have to actively work towards ending the world and doing things that are supposed to help bring this about (i.e. research, experiment and fight). The rest of the population is very much limited in freedom and in rights; not much attention is paid to its beliefs, and its only official functions are menial labour (and anything else that is considered beneath or irrelevant to a cult member) to support the cult and, ofcourse, sacrifice fodder;
3) Caste system. The Ashen Veil priesthood, which might or might not coincide with the original founders or those specifically promoted by the leader, enjoys special privileges and special duties as leaders of the cult. The other castes (secular nobility and/or warriors, merchants and craftsmen, peasants) are connected to the cult as well, but to different degrees and in different forms. The priesthood is led by and answers to the leader him/herself;
4) USSR. The cult is a comparatively small (though not too small) range of privileged members of the society, with additional rights and additional duties. It is hierarchical and coincides with the Sheaim government; the highest levels are in charge of the policy-making. It is relatively easy to join the lower ranks, and not impossible to work one's way up (not to the very top, ofcourse, but very close to it). The rest of the population is not wholly disenfranchised, but is not necessarily a direct part of the main cult; it still is supposed to follow its guide, however. On all levels of society, the degree of commitment (both actual and extraneous) can vary quite widely, though those openly impeding the cult are usually simply destroyed, whereas less zealous followers of Good or non-state Neutral religions are tolerated unless they aren't. My favourite option, by the way.
5) 1984. Somewhat similar to the above, but more rigid and stratified. The cult is a relatively small but dominant part of the society, and is itself divided into the Inner Cult (for lack of a better term) and the Outer Cult. The Inner Cult constitutes the government and has the most privileges (possibly only it knows the full truth about the Sheaim goal, but it would be better if they only know the specific plans for bringing it about and such, whilst others do at least know that destroying the world is a) the plan and b) very much a good thing). The Outer Cult is the lower-level cult functionaries and practitioners. Promotion - or, rather, appointment to one part or another at a young age - is wholly meritocratic - possibly somewhat like that of the Amurites (since magic is king, especially when you want to destroy the world), only more rigid and more eeevil. The rest of the population are proles and once again irrelevant except inasmuch as they provide taxes, menial labour and if need be themselves for cannon fodder and sacrifices;
6) Mysteries. The society (possibly sans certain groups like slaves and other indentured labourers or practitioners of other religions) still is the cult, but there are many different levels of initiation, each bringing with it new powers, new duties and new knowledge. But it is not at all a requirement for everyone to advance up the ladder, and most people probably won't since it is difficult and/or expensive, instead living a more or less normal life under the guidance of the higher level cultists.

I could probably come up with some others, but those will do for now. And ofcourse different elements from different models could easily be intermixed.

It seems that the specific model might depend on the specific civics picked, ofcourse. Still, I would like to know your thoguhts on this, as well as any canon information on how the Sheaim are organised after they have grown into something more.

 

[marioflag]

It seems really hard to imagine a society like Sheaim which is following world and its own self destruction.
I don't think you can really find a comparation in real world of Sheaim Society, i just assume that those kind of societies can only exist in a fantasy world.

I personally can see them only formed by evil cultists or refugees from other societies with their own evil agenda.I don't think normal people could ever live in a society driven by an agenda so sick, the only choice for those people would be just to flee, otherwise you would have to be in contact with Pyre Zombies, Eater of Dreams and other mad experiments.Even Doviello cities could be probably a better place to live

 

[das]

I don't think you can really find a comparation in real world of Sheaim Society, i just assume that those kind of societies can only exist in a fantasy world.

It certainly is impossible to match it, but one might hope to find at least a distant analogy and work from there. Which is the point of this thread, pretty much.

I personally can see them only formed by evil cultists or refugees from other societies with their own evil agenda.

That makes sense at first, but later on they still do have natural population growth (unless all population growth is new arrivals from elsewhere, but that's quite a stretch), and a few generations later this model would be more or less impossible to preserve, I'm afraid. It might be preserved externally, but de facto the Sheaim society will still be subject to stratification. Also, explain things like marketplaces, cottages and commerce in general as applies to a society made wholly of evil cultists.

I don't think normal people could ever live in a society driven by an agenda so sick, the only choice for those people would be just to flee, otherwise you would have to be in contact with Pyre Zombies, Eater of Dreams and other mad experiments.

Normal people have survived in many social environments in which some might think it impossible for them to exist. That said, obviously anyone living in the Sheaim society would only be normal by comparison with the most far-gone of its members. Still, once again I doubt that such a large, extensive and advanced society as the Sheaim would tend to evolve into in most games could possibly consist fully of out-and-out cultists. Someone has to tend the fields and such.

I agree that it is very much a dystopia that many would be tempted to leave at some point, but human attachment to the place of their birth (not to mention border controls augmented by magic) is not to be underestimated. Besides, where would they go? Early in the game, the wilderness would not really look all that appealing - even lying low amongst the Sheaim might give more chances of survival, though many will certainly try their luck outside when faced wit real danger from within the Sheaim society. Later on, the other evil empires are horrific in their own right, whilst everyone else would be quite reasonably suspicious of Sheaim migrants, though the Elohim and the Grigori would be more accepting/gullible than the most.

 

[TheJopa]

In my opinion, most of populace is normal farming one, minding their own business and knowing nothing about end of the world. They do know about evil practices, but they live in fear and tyranny and keep silent. A typical repressive regime.

Then you have a large part of populace that want to research dark magic, demons and such, or strive to get power by signing demonic pacts, but still never consider that their actions lead to Armageddon.

And real goal is only known to top-tier mages.

 

[TheJopa]

I had a game where I vasalised them as Bannor, and converted to Order or Runes. It was before they researched AV and gone severely evil. In that case I imagine I just deposed evil top tier, before corruption spread too much, and they remained a normal kingdom with bias towards secrets far to dangerous and mystical for other empires. So they still had their gates, but they were not really evil. Kind of like Amurites.

 

[das]

In my opinion, most of populace is normal farming one, minding their own business and knowing nothing about end of the world. They do know about evil practices, but they live in fear and tyranny and keep silent. A typical repressive regime.

The thing about "typical repressive regimes" is that they rarely ran on fear alone; fear, as well as ignorance, would definitely be a large part of it, but I suspect that there would also be some residual loyalty to the government, at least as long as it doesn't go too far. Somewhat like with most peasant populations in less than desperate times.

It's also interesting how this might stack with the Ashen Veil spreading and becoming a popular religion. I think that this might greatly expand the "middle class".

Then you have a large part of populace that want to research dark magic, demons and such, or strive to get power by signing demonic pacts, but still never consider that their actions lead to Armageddon.

Presumably the literate urban population would be more or less like this, no?

I had a game where I vasalised them as Bannor, and converted to Order or Runes. It was before they researched AV and gone severely evil. In that case I imagine I just deposed evil top tier, before corruption spread too much, and they remained a normal kingdom with bias towards secrets far to dangerous and mystical for other empires. So they still had their gates, but they were not really evil. Kind of like Amurites.

Speaking of games, the reason I thought of those things in the first place was the fairly large (until I and my allies destroyed it) Sheaim empire in a recent game. It had many prosperous large cities and towns everywhere (as a side note, Centaurs are awesome when it comes to plundering things); it seems unlikely that it would be populated solely by evil cultists. Also, closer to its destruction and after it had lost its original capital, the Sheaim state - now centered in a prosperous city reasonably far away from the capital converted to Runes of Kilmorph and became neutral; so I think that might have been the case of the cult having been mostly exterminated at Galveholm and elsewhere, and the local rich urban oligarchs simply killing off the rest and taking over in a desperate effort to save what could be saved. Obviously, those people were not keen on destroying the world; but also obviously, they also had some patriotic attachment to the idea of the Sheaim state, or at least attachment to the order and prosperity it brought to the land and consequentially to them. From there on I reached the idea that there has to be more to the Sheaim than is to be found in their Civilopedia description; in such an advanced empire the cult can't help but coexist with some more normal human social structures.

 

[marioflag]

It certainly is impossible to match it, but one might hope to find at least a distant analogy and work from there. Which is the point of this thread, pretty much.

I don't think there is ever been a human society which can really match it.Even the societies or human groups which in an historical period committed the worst atrocities didn't have an agenda so sick in my opinion. You can find lot of comparison to Doviello and Clan of Embers but honestly not Sheaim.

That makes sense at first, but later on they still do have natural population growth (unless all population growth is new arrivals from elsewhere, but that's quite a stretch), and a few generations later this model would be more or less impossible to preserve, I'm afraid. It might be preserved externally, but de facto the Sheaim society will still be subject to stratification. Also, explain things like marketplaces, cottages and commerce in general as applies to a society made wholly of evil cultists.

Infact i can't see Sheaim as a really large society in terms of population, because of its agenda.Afterall how much people would like to live in a society which follows also its own self destruction?it goes against human nature. Population growth can be justified though by birthrate.Afterall if people live in this society so sick since birth you can imagine that a lot of them become as much sick.I also agree that this society would have a lot of troubles in reality to mantain its social order, it would be really easy to fall in intercine warfare.

Normal people have survived in many social environments in which some might think it impossible for them to exist. That said, obviously anyone living in the Sheaim society would only be normal by comparison with the most far-gone of its members. Still, once again I doubt that such a large, extensive and advanced society as the Sheaim would tend to evolve into in most games could possibly consist fully of out-and-out cultists. Someone has to tend the fields and such.

I agree that it is very much a dystopia that many would be tempted to leave at some point, but human attachment to the place of their birth (not to mention border controls augmented by magic) is not to be underestimated. Besides, where would they go? Early in the game, the wilderness would not really look all that appealing - even lying low amongst the Sheaim might give more chances of survival, though many will certainly try their luck outside when faced wit real danger from within the Sheaim society. Later on, the other evil empires are horrific in their own right, whilst everyone else would be quite reasonably suspicious of Sheaim migrants, though the Elohim and the Grigori would be more accepting/gullible than the most.

I agree that human has adapted to a lot of social environments, but in my opinion it remains that there is nothing like a Sheaim society. Living in a society so sick ideologically would certainly impose on each individual a great spiritual involvement, which means that you would end up as a cultist or someone involved in their rituals otherwise you would be a subject for some experiment or a slave or something like that.Sheaim people would be also in direct contact with demons or fiendish creature everyday so it is another reason why "normal" people would require a deep spiritual adaptation which in all other evil societies in Erebus is less required (Infernals clearly is not considered).

 

[das]

I don't think there is ever been a human society which can really match it.

Nobody is saying anything about *matching* it. Again, all I speak of is similarity of social structures.

You can find lot of comparison to Doviello and Clan of Embers but honestly not Sheaim.

I am hard-pressed to find anything of the kind; sure, there have been some distantly similar analogies, but those are no more similar to the Doviello than the suggested models are similar to the Sheaim.

Then again, survival at all costs is ofcourse a much more popular goal in our world than destruction of the Creation.

Infact i can't see Sheaim as a really large society in terms of population, because of its agenda.

Well, technically one possibility is that most of the population is disenfranchised and not exactly a part of the Sheaim society - sort of like helots, hence the Sparta model.

Afterall how much people would like to live in a society which follows also its own self destruction?

Would they have a choice? And would they technically realise it? I think that the official line would be that this world's destruction would grant those on the right side of it all kinds of boons in whatever will exist after that happens. Alternatively, it is also possible that most simply don't know, as was suggested.

I also agree that this society would have a lot of troubles in reality to mantain its social order, it would be really easy to fall in intercine warfare.

Well, yes, but if it is not destroyed in the course of internecine warfare certain reforms are likely to follow, and those reforms would have to result in the creation of the "advanced Sheaim society", which is what I am trying to figure out here.

Living in a society so sick ideologically would certainly impose on each individual a great spiritual involvement, which means that you would end up as a cultist or someone involved in their rituals otherwise you would be a subject for some experiment or a slave or something like that.

Theoretically, yes, but one would think that most cult rituals and suchlike would occur in the cities and special sacred places; I still think that most of the population, especially away from the cities, would be, at the very least, lay cultists (or, indeed, slaves or serfs of some kind. But those are not the only possibilities).

Sheaim people would be also in direct contact with demons or fiendish creature everyday so it is another reason why "normal" people would require a deep spiritual adaptation which in all other evil societies in Erebus is less required (Infernals clearly is not considered).

Well, again, there is the question of whether demons would be that widespread in the countryside - they don't seem to be so numerous, and it is likely that the Sheaim would not let them wander all that much.

Again - someone still has to work the fields and pay the taxes. This does not apply to the early Sheaim society, and possibly to the late when their magic is advanced enough and demons are everywhere, but what occurs in between the two phases is, I think, the most interesting part of Sheaim history.

 

[KillerClowns]

BCalchet's stories on the Sheaim form much of my picture of them. (They're on this tread.)
I would guess the USSR interpretation would be the closest to my view as well, but also with a dash of American Dream for those on the outside. The Sheaim aren't about to advertise themselves as a wretches slave society, and presenting themselves as a refuge for exiles that nobody else would take would be a good move on their part.

 

[Mailbox]

I've always seen them as a Roman-like state, with heavy stratification and the state cult being less malign at first until the AC rises high enough and the AV ruptures and destroys most of the society.

For anyone that's played or heard of Dominions 3, I see the Sheaim as a version of Ermor. A empire with a dark secret at first and that secret begins to consume and destroy the entire nation until nothing but the dead and demons remains.

 

[das]

BCalchet's stories on the Sheaim form much of my picture of them. (They're on this tread.)

Thanks for the link, that seems pretty close to what life in Galveholm must be like; it might be different further away from the central government, though.

I would guess the USSR interpretation would be the closest to my view as well, but also with a dash of American Dream for those on the outside. The Sheaim aren't about to advertise themselves as a wretches slave society, and presenting themselves as a refuge for exiles that nobody else would take would be a good move on their part.

They definitely would be the haven for all the dark mages on the run (as well as those simply dissatisfied with strict regulations, even amongst the Amurites). I guess they could also take in runaway criminals and use them in their military (sort of like Cossacks who were runaway serfs that were eventually granted autonomy and various liberties in exchange for military service; I think that the Sheaim would do well to arrange something like that, but more sinister, in their border regions at least before they have tar demons all over the place and so forth).

For anyone that's played or heard of Dominions 3, I see the Sheaim as a version of Ermor. A empire with a dark secret at first and that secret begins to consume and destroy the entire nation until nothing but the dead and demons remains.

That comparison actually occurred to me as well. The Sheaim that I speak of are more like Middle Age Ermor, only with a more malevolent/demented leadership that does not so much seek to limit and control the dark powers as to help them destroy everything. But in the meantime, some of the middling and lower ranks might very well be closer to the Ermorian censors in ideology and nature, whereas the commoners have to coexist with all kinds of spreading and growing weirdness.

I still think that one of the most interesting possible scenarios for the Sheaim is for them to construct a reasonably large and healthy empire while preparing to bring about the eschaton - and then for the cult leadership to be overthrown by someone (probably an ambitious and successful mage and/or general; I wonder if Decius would mind being a leader for yet another civilisation? ) who is ruthless and willing to use demons and entropic magic, but wants the empire to last and prefers to rule the world rather than destroy it.

 

[citizenalex]

Would they have a choice? And would they technically realise it? I think that the official line would be that this world's destruction would grant those on the right side of it all kinds of boons in whatever will exist after that happens.

I totally agree with that. Same promise given to its leader.... Like rapture bringers or something. Conversely, I believe there should be a Sheim unique building that works more or less in the same fashion as the khazad vaults but related to the AC counter as opposed to gold.

Something that channels the misery of the world and makes the Sheim citizens happier...

 

[hbar]

I hate to bring this up (warning - possible flamebait) but I was raised in a very pentacostal church, and there were a lot of members that were happily awaiting (and in some cases pursuing) the passages of Revelations. The idea that the chosen will be taken to heaven while the heathens burn with the world is very ... appealing to some. Frankly, it freaked me right the **** out - I'm agnostic now. (I guess that means I'm Grigori?) Anyway, that is a starting point to how I see the sheaim society, with some obvious differences. Like demons, and sacrifices and all.

 

[Kael]

I have half a story written about a decent man living in the Sheaim capital. He is in charge of some old, horrid women that clean an inn. The things he finds in the inn rooms from time to time are disgusting. He describes it as: "Many travelers passed through Galveholm and took the opportunity to partake in the worst sorts of depravity."

I think thats pretty typical of the Sheaim. It has all of the normal aspects of medievil/fantasy society, but is incredibly depraved and corrupt. The man continues to muse about what happens in the Inn rooms (and Sheaim society as a whole) by saying: "The Sheaim believed in the sanctity of personal expression, though it applied more to the visiting Emrys than the diseased whore he hired for the evening."

I dont think the common man thinks or cares much about the apoclypse. They are much more concerned about things that directly impact their lives. I made the man in the story a good man just to highlight the corruption around him. Even his wife berates him for not spreading rumors that the inn manager has been indiscrete about his guests so that he can take over the managers job.

Depravity is seen as freedom inside the society and immorality as tolerance. The difference between the Sheaim and the Calabim is that in the Sheaim society the low class really does have a chance to rise up. Each man is viewed on his own merits, but in order to rise in the society he has to be willing to sacrifice any part of morality or virtue that he may have. This is what draws a lot of people from other cultures to the Sheaim, but usually only the most corrupt candidates.

 

[Darksaber1]

So the biggest diffrence between the Sheaim and Balseraph society are the Sheaim have laws?

 

[Kael]

So the biggest diffrence between the Sheaim and Balseraph society are the Sheaim have laws?

In the Sheaim a talented member of the lower class can rise into the upper class (if he's willing to forgo certain ethical restrictions). In the Balseraphs there is no real hierarchy, at least no a very enduring one. There would never be real manor houses, because by the time they were built the family that ordered it would be gone or destitute. Its very much a temporary culture.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Sheaim sound a lot like a darker version of America...

 

[Corlis]

The difference between the Sheaim and the Calabim is that in the Sheaim society the low class really does have a chance to rise up.

Do the Moroi not count as lower class then, or do they not really have a realistic chance o becoming vampires themselves?

(Bonus question: my Greek dictionary tells me that "moroi" can either mean "deaths/fates" if the first o is an omicron, or "stupid people" if it's an omega. Did you get the name from one of those definitons, or was it just a coincidence?)

 

[Kael]

The Sheaim sound a lot like a darker version of America...

Its scientology, but without the alien master race.

Do the Moroi not count as lower class then, or do they not really have a realistic chance o becoming vampires themselves?

(Bonus question: my Greek dictionary tells me that "moroi" can either mean "deaths/fates" if the first o is an omicron, or "stupid people" if it's an omega. Did you get the name from one of those definitons, or was it just a coincidence?)

Moroi is another name for vampire in Romanian folklore.

 

[Psychorg]

Its scientology, but without the alien master race.

But for that we have the Octopus Overlords. Who needs the Necronomicon when we've got Dianetics?