Short fun game (immortal)

[bestsss]

@Silu,
the decay is scaled, I think it was finally patched

Spoiler :

void CvCity::doDecay()
{
	int iI;

	for (iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumBuildingInfos(); iI++)
	{
		BuildingTypes eBuilding = (BuildingTypes) iI;
		if (getProductionBuilding() != eBuilding)
		{
			if (getBuildingProduction(eBuilding) > 0)
			{
				changeBuildingProductionTime(eBuilding, 1);

				if (isHuman())
				{
					int iGameSpeedPercent = GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getConstructPercent();
					if (100 * getBuildingProductionTime(eBuilding) > GC.getDefineINT("BUILDING_PRODUCTION_DECAY_TIME") * iGameSpeedPercent)
					{
						int iProduction = getBuildingProduction(eBuilding);
						setBuildingProduction(eBuilding, iProduction - (iProduction * (100 - GC.getDefineINT("BUILDING_PRODUCTION_DECAY_PERCENT")) + iGameSpeedPercent - 1) / iGameSpeedPercent);
					}
				}
			}
			else
			{
				setBuildingProductionTime(eBuilding, 0);
			}
		}
	}

	for (iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumUnitInfos(); iI++)
	{
		UnitTypes eUnit = (UnitTypes) iI;
		if (getProductionUnit() != eUnit)
		{
			if (getUnitProduction(eUnit) > 0)
			{
				changeUnitProductionTime(eUnit, 1);

				if (isHuman())
				{
					int iGameSpeedPercent = GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getTrainPercent();
					if (100 * getUnitProductionTime(eUnit) > GC.getDefineINT("UNIT_PRODUCTION_DECAY_TIME") * iGameSpeedPercent)
					{
						int iProduction = getUnitProduction(eUnit);
						setUnitProduction(eUnit, iProduction - (iProduction * (100 - GC.getDefineINT("UNIT_PRODUCTION_DECAY_PERCENT")) + iGameSpeedPercent - 1) / iGameSpeedPercent);
					}
				}
			}
			else
			{
				setUnitProductionTime(eUnit, 0);
			}
		}
	}
}

 

[mystyfly]

I'm unsure what the general opinion is now...

Is everyone fine with:

• Kick off the GA after discovering CS
• Switch to buerocracy and CS the very same turn
• Backfill masonry/mono
• Switch to OR and back to slavery at the end of the GA
• Trade for MC later after some part. research (I think this is silu's opinion; I would either trade for it right now or give up CS for MC as the tech is quite well known anyway. Plus, I don't consider churchill any kind of danger with his 5-city-empire and technological backwardsness)

GA and gold reserves don't have anything to do with each other, the commerce and thus wealth/research gained is the same. Numerically it boosts 100% sci more than 100% gold but the proportions are the same so it won't affect a thing. Or am I missing something?

IMO we should start it when we finish CS to get Bureu insta, then get Mono during GA and adopt Hindu+OR at the end of the GA.

Yes they have very much to do with eachother! GA means more commerce from cottages. We have an academy, a library and a monastery in moscov, our main source of commerce. Let's say we work 10 tiles with at least 1 commerce (tiles that get a boost by the GA), we get +10gpt if the slider is at 0% but we get +18bpt running at 100% (not considering buerocracy since that boosts commerce).

I agree we shouldn't trade CS to Church. Most important thing to note is to not sell lopsidedly for gold to Civs that are someones WE, that's a surefire way to get -4 WE hate instantly.

You agree with who? CS is known to many civs; I really really doubt he goes after us (even if, he's far away from maces lol). Furthermore, the -ves from WE hate come a bit later in the game usually, and selling techs to fuel deficit research is important to remain competitive in the techrace. Also, I think all civs have picked their WE so we're not that much in danger of becoming someone's, we're at cautious with everyone. Once churchill DOWs mao or gandhi, they'll remain eachother's WEs most likely, which only leaves the other of the two to have us for their worst enemy.

Yes, this is the biggest priority IMO. As a side note we could go Paper after CS&Mono&MC for double-sped UoS, that should give decent returns with 9 cities with many of them prod (or at least not cottage) oriented.

Even though I'm not fond of the religious wonders, I kinda like USak here... OTOH we might as well be building wealth to reach MT faster...

 

[shyuhe]

Don't build UoS, just build wealth. I think the earlier GA for bureau is better than trying to save for 100% research on it. I'm ok with selling techs for gold - we're not going to be trading many more techs with these guys anyways.

 

[babybluepants]

^ Don't forget the Hindu switch.

I vote we trade for MC right now. We can get cheap forges up during the golden age, and I think we'll have some turns to build wealth here and there after.

I don't think the slider during golden age is so important. Moscow will also get a lot of commerce from bureau, so delaying that 'till we save up money costs us, as well.

EDIT: x-post.

 

[Silu]

As I already said I'm fine with taking MC right away, actually I said that's probably the way to go (if you completely read my post) ~~

For CS, there's not that much to get with it. If you can get something worthwhile then go for it by all means. I mainly meant that we shouldn't get MC with it.

I'll get back to the GA and slider when I have more time.

EDIT: In other words I agree 100% with the plan If team doesn't want UoS then skip it, just thought it'll build very very fast with stone+ind.

 

[babybluepants]

For CS, there's not that much to get with it. If you can get something worthwhile then go for it by all means. I mainly meant that we shouldn't get MC with it.

Agree with this... The only thing that would be valuable enough soonish is probably Philo? We could run Pac with Caste in golden age...

 

[mystyfly]

Doubt we get anything worth waiting for with CS. Churchill is in WHEOOH so will be teching any military tech instead of philo which is quite low priority to AIs usually once tao has been founded. Why do you guys don't want to trade CS for MC (+HBR +gold +something else...)? I'd prefer to save the gold and get MC with CS instead of currency as 165g is quite a bit at this time...

 

[Silu]

^

1) We're already making suboptimal builds in places that could be doing forges
2) Currency is on its last leg of trade usefulness, if we use CS instead it's pretty much wasted
?) I have a vague recollection that Church was someone's WE, any CS trade would probably be quite lopsided hence resulting in a nasty pile of WE hate if he is indeed a WE

EDIT: Though I don't have very strong feelings about this, I'm totally fine with CS->MC+HBR as well. Not a very important subject IMO

 

[babybluepants]

@mysty,
I generally don't like to give away cash, especially at this stage, but it's somehow appealing here, since we don't have that much trade bait and need to get our hands on a lot of techs soon. We could also potentially get something good from trading MC immediately (Calendar would be really useful here)... Also, second Silu's points above.

Yes they have very much to do with eachother! GA means more commerce from cottages. We have an academy, a library and a monastery in moscov, our main source of commerce. Let's say we work 10 tiles with at least 1 commerce (tiles that get a boost by the GA), we get +10gpt if the slider is at 0% but we get +18bpt running at 100% (not considering buerocracy since that boosts commerce).

I'm admittedly kinda dumb with these things (namely, math ), but does this even matter? Over the course of the game (rather, a fixed period in the game - say from academy/libraries to Oxford, in this case), you get X amount of commerce. You pay Y amount of maintenance. Your slider research is basically (X-Y*gold_multiply)*beaker_multiply, correct? As long as you're not building a significant set of multipliers to offset the equation. The X amount simply includes bonus commerce during golden age, whether that happens now or in 10t... Or, am I totally missing something?

 

[shyuhe]

We have more research multipliers than gold multipliers. So we'll make more running 100% on science, but it's a bit hazy since it means delaying bureau some.

 

[Silu]

I'm admittedly kinda dumb with these things (namely, math ), but does this even matter? Over the course of the game (rather, a fixed period in the game - say from academy/libraries to Oxford, in this case), you get X amount of commerce. You pay Y amount of maintenance. Your slider research is basically (X-Y*gold_multiply)*beaker_multiply, correct? As long as you're not building a significant set of multipliers to offset the equation. The X amount simply includes bonus commerce during golden age, whether that happens now or in 10t... Or, am I totally missing something?

Here's an example... showing that indeed the slider does not matter and "saving for a GA" is a fool's errand.

Scenario info:
10 tiles x2 commerce = 20 commerce normally
10 tiles x3 commerce = 30 commerce during GA
10gpt maintenance
+100% sci modifier
10 turn GA


0% during GA * 10 turns:
(1.00*30 - 10 = 20gpt)
(0.00*30*2.0 = 0bpt)

200g, 0b

100% normally * 20 turns:
(0.00*20 - 10 = -10gpt)
(1.00*20*2.0 = 40bpt)

-200g, 800b

Net result: 0g, 800b


100% during GA * 10 turns:
(0.00*30 - 10 = -10gpt)
(1.00*30*2.0 = 60bpt)

-100g, 600b

75% normally * 20 turns:
(0.75*20 - 10 = 5gpt)
(0.25*20*2.0 = 10bpt)

100g, 200b

Net result: 0g, 800b

 

[shyuhe]

@Silu - that doesn't take into consideration the bonus from swapping to bureau earlier. Obviously running 100% with bureau during the GA is better than 75%, but I don't know if it pays to swap to bureau earlier to compensate.

 

[babybluepants]

^ I don't understand that. What does Bureau have to do with Silu's example? It simply ups the base numbers. You could just say that it's already accounted for...

Obviously, earlier bureau = good, but that only means we want the GA as soon as we get CS which everyone seems to agree on anyway. We're arguing that the slider has nothing to do with this decision.

What is relevant, though, is getting to Mono by the end of the GA. We should make sure we can do that.

 

[Silu]

BBP is right, I was referring to tidbits like these below (emphasis added for 1st and 3rd), which have nothing to do with Bureucracy (neither does my example). Of course the earlier Bureu we get the better, all the more reason to adopt it ASAP (via the GA, since we're burning one) instead of saving assets.

[*] GA: to me it's unclear when to start it. Not right now as we want to spend the GA under buerocracy and also want to adopt OR. Neither just after finishing CS as our treasury will be quite empty and we'll want to run 100% science during most of the GA. So I'm in favour of kicking off the GA after my set, I'll tech CS, masonry and monotheism while accumulating some gold for a decent GA in the next set. Sounds ok?

Yes they have very much to do with eachother! GA means more commerce from cottages. We have an academy, a library and a monastery in moscov, our main source of commerce. Let's say we work 10 tiles with at least 1 commerce (tiles that get a boost by the GA), we get +10gpt if the slider is at 0% but we get +18bpt running at 100% (not considering buerocracy since that boosts commerce).

Don't build UoS, just build wealth. I think the earlier GA for bureau is better than trying to save for 100% research on it. I'm ok with selling techs for gold - we're not going to be trading many more techs with these guys anyways.

EDIT:

What is relevant, though, is getting to Mono by the end of the GA. We should make sure we can do that.

Yeah; it should be very easy. our breakeven tech is about 50bpt even without GA, Masonry is 87 and Mono 130. Even in the worst case even without GA we should be able to get those in 4 turns (with the bpt->beaker bonuses like 20% of having a prerequisite and the have-any-cities-bonus). Very probably there'd be time to partresearch MC to be able to trade it with Currency before going Maso+Mono but I guess we want to play it safe since there's not that much wiggle room in Quick.

 

[pollock]

Bureaucracy ups the base commerce in the capital which I assume has your best research modifiers. This makes it better to get gold before this. Unless there is a significant change to the gold:beakers ratio of your empire as a whole building up gold supplies before GA is pretty pointless. If 3/4 libraries came online in high commerce places that would be a reason.

Enjoying your thread loads keep it up

 

[Silu]

"Saving money for Bureu" is equally pointless as saving it for a GA. Anything that affects the amount of has nothing to do with slider optimization, after Bureu you get more wealth at 0% at the same proportion as you get more sci at 100%. Only modifiers that you have a slider for affect the slider efficiency (namely , , and ) - it's the rate with which the taxes are distilled to wealth or gold distilled to science. If these modifiers stay equal, it doesn't matter when the gold is gained as it can be similarly distilled to science at any time.

Think about it this way. If your pay is doubled for this month and the next, you don't need to spend it during these months for it to pay off. Unless there is a fire sale.

 

[pollock]

It doesn't up the amount of commerce as a whole it does it in isolation in the capital which has its own unique modifiers that are probably different from the empires average. Its likely a very small change so no real biggy

 

[mystyfly]

Sorry folks, I have no time today, I hope I can read up and play tomorrow...

 

[Silu]

It doesn't up the amount of commerce as a whole it does it in isolation in the capital which has its own unique modifiers that are probably different from the empires average. Its likely a very small change so no real biggy

Man, it still doesn't matter in the slightest. Upping the commerce will affect gold output in the same proportion as science output. Which you can use later at equal efficiency provided the relevant modifiers ( and in this case) stay the same. Upping the commerce in any single city has no effect (with regards to slider use as is the subject matter here) even if that city has the best such modifiers.

You can use my example above for reasoning through this as well, consider the example as a subset of the whole situation. Namely the scenario would be the capital included in a bigger scenario which has other cities whose commerce output doesn't change.

All considering the 4 relevant modifiers stated above stay the same of course.

EDIT: This stuff is going kinda off topic as it stopped being relevant to our actual game about 5 of my posts ago, sorry. Will focus on the game from now on

 

[shyuhe]

@mysty - I can play this weekend if you can't get to it.