Shoshone

[Enginseer]

I'd repeat this as usual. The Shoshone are the jack of all trade civs. Their UA and UI are very consistent with this.

UU is essentially a stronger calvary but with much greater presence. The being able to pillage without movement points and withdraw before melee gives them huge survivability. This allows the UU to take more of the recon's and melee mounted/armored unit's role on a greater level.
UA offering free land is a great way to represent jack of all trades. You have no concern about mis-settling because the free land will usually claim the overlooked tiles.
UI is a jack of all trades of improvement offering a mini-citadel property of 5 damage, yield versatility, and a mini-fort property of +15% Defensive Bonuses(this is somewhat increased by the fact the UA grants you defensive strength as well in friendly territory). This makes them a fantastic civ to be hard to punish since their Encampments can sustain their yields anywhere. They can be built on desert, tundra, and snow. They can make these tiles actually workable.

What the Shoshone excels in is their versatility as shown in BNW and is now reflected back in Vox Populi.

 

[azum4roll]

I do find the UIs not being worked at all during Medieval/Renaissance weird. Villages on roads are better than them in terms of yields.

 

[pineappledan]

I do find the UIs not being worked at all during Medieval/Renaissance weird. Villages on roads are better than them in terms of yields.

Or like, a triangle farm + cathedral. Boom, better yields in classical. And sure, no defense, but the defense isn’t worth sacrificing tile yields.

 

[Stalker0]

Or like, a triangle farm + cathedral. Boom, better yields in classical. And sure, no defense, but the defense isn’t worth sacrificing tile yields.

Well yes the UI is not better than the perfect storm of a terrain condition you can't get everything and a religion building specifically designed to bump up said terrain condition. Its not like every piece of a civ has to be amazing. The Shoshone have some very strong powers, and the encampment is a UI I definitely want to build. Do I build it in every tile possible...no. Do I build it...well sure.

 

[azum4roll]

For all (?) other civs with UI, you always want to spam their UI as much as possible. For encampments I feel like you're supposed to replace all non-border ones with other improvements at around Medieval.

 

[Enginseer]

For all (?) other civs with UI, you always want to spam their UI as much as possible. For encampments I feel like you're supposed to replace all non-border ones with other improvements at around Medieval.

you can't replace encampments with something else on snow, desert, and tundra most of the time.

 

[Rekk]

you can't replace encampments with something else on snow, desert, and tundra most of the time.

You also don't work them if at all possible.

 

[crdvis16]

I was also weirded out by Shoshone's UI when I last played them. It's a great tile to work early but very quickly gets overshadowed by regular villages, etc later on.

I don't think their UI should be just buffed later on, though, as Shoshone seems to be a high-tier civ already. I would suggest that their yields be reduced a little early on but given more buffs at various techs to keep them always worth working in a typical city. So rather than being really strong early and unworkable later they could be decent early and stil workable later.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't know what you guys are complaining about, every cons against Shoshonese Encampment also applies to Polder, except Polder comes in late medieval and not ancient era and has no defense bonuses. Even after the first tech boost in renaissance, cities often decide to ignore them and it also is worse than a Village. In fact it's arguably worse than a Village even after both upgrades. Only after both the early renaissance and late renaissance ones are applied do cities start caring, and the Encampment gets a slightly later early industrial era boost that does a similar thing, except it's worked for a long time. I'd take the ability to make Encampments over Polders every single time without a second's hesitation.

 

[Txurce]

I don't know what you guys are complaining about, every cons against Shoshonese Encampment also applies to Polder, except Polder comes in late medieval and not ancient era and has no defense bonuses. Even after the first tech boost in renaissance, cities often decide to ignore them and it also is worse than a Village. In fact it's arguably worse than a Village even after both upgrades. Only after both the early renaissance and late renaissance ones are applied do cities start caring, and the Encampment gets a slightly later early industrial era boost that does a similar thing, except it's worked for a long time. I'd take the ability to make Encampments over Polders every single time without a second's hesitation.

I thought of the Polder as well. And sure, I could start a conversation about them as well — and go from there to how I think the bottom 5 civs (in my opinion) could be buffed to challenge the elite. But this would be never-ending. There isn't one civ right now that's not competitive in human hands, or gets its ass kicked regularly in AI hands. So I'd leave them all alone.

 

[Stalker0]

I thought of the Polder as well. And sure, I could start a conversation about them as well — and go from there to how I think the bottom 5 civs (in my opinion) could be buffed to challenge the elite. But this would be never-ending. There isn't one civ right now that's not competitive in human hands, or gets its ass kicked regularly in AI hands. So I'd leave them all alone.

Agreed. Civs are a balance of UA + UB + UU + UI. So what if the shoshone have a weaker UI, they have great other aspects. If the UI was so weak I never used it, that would be one thing. But its not, so we are good.

 

[pineappledan]

Agreed. Civs are a balance of UA + UB + UU + UI. So what if the shoshone have a weaker UI, they have great other aspects. If the UI was so weak I never used it, that would be one thing. But its not, so we are good.

the issue isn’t that I never use it. It’s a great tile in the ancient/classical.

The problem is that it’s a rubbish tile in the medieval and later and it occupies space where better tile improvements could be put instead, like villages, GPTIs or triangle farms.

Most civs with UIs don’t have the problem where their UI’s yields is worse than a village, regardless of whether or not it has a road through it, and no civ with a UB has a similar problem, where their UB takes up space for something else. All UB are at minimum better than the base building they replace. UIs have to deal with an opportunity cost for the space they occupy, and in any post-classical circumstance that isn’t specifically defending a choke point, the encampment doesn’t beat most regular tile improvements.

 

[Stalker0]

Most civs with UIs don’t have the problem where their UI’s yields is worse than a village, regardless of whether or not it has a road through it, and no civ with a UB has a similar problem, where their UB takes up space for something else.

Then...remove the improvement and build something else.

Certain UU don’t upgrade either and Keep their bonuses. It’s part of the game. You take advantage of something when it’s useful, and you move on when it’s not.

Civs play differently. If the optimal way to play Shoshone (replace encampments with another tile later in the game) is different from playing another civ...then that’s good!

 

[crdvis16]

I don't know what you guys are complaining about, every cons against Shoshonese Encampment also applies to Polder, except Polder comes in late medieval and not ancient era and has no defense bonuses. Even after the first tech boost in renaissance, cities often decide to ignore them and it also is worse than a Village. In fact it's arguably worse than a Village even after both upgrades. Only after both the early renaissance and late renaissance ones are applied do cities start caring, and the Encampment gets a slightly later early industrial era boost that does a similar thing, except it's worked for a long time. I'd take the ability to make Encampments over Polders every single time without a second's hesitation.

Then the Polder should get looked at, too. We can do both- the existence of the Polder doesn't change the fact that the Encampment is kinda weird in its current state.

Then...remove the improvement and build something else.

Certain UU don’t upgrade either and Keep their bonuses. It’s part of the game. You take advantage of something when it’s useful, and you move on when it’s not.

Civs play differently. If the optimal way to play Shoshone (replace encampments with another tile later in the game) is different from playing another civ...then that’s good!

Or we slightly tweak the Encampment so that it is a useful UI throughout the game and doesn't need to be replaced. I think this is the better option because replacing a UI with generic improvements takes away from a game as the Shoshone feeling unique.

Having a UI that obsoletes is not some fun interesting mechanic and it doesn't make them feel like they play differently than other civs. It feels more like an oversight and unintuitive. The norm is that UIs are strong and maximizing their use is part of playing a civ well so in the case of the Shoshone when a player suddenly realizes the encampments are no longer useful it just feels like a bug.

As players we of course deal with the circumstances of the game, and in the case of the Shoshone that means you stop working or caring about encampments at some point. But just because we can deal with it in its current state doesn't mean the encampment shouldn't be changed for the better. The argument of "that's the way the game is currently designed and it can be dealt with so it's fine" can be used as an argument against any change at all.

 

[pineappledan]

Certain UU don’t upgrade either and Keep their bonuses. It’s part of the game. You take advantage of something when it’s useful, and you move on when it’s not.

That’s the key difference between a UU and a UB or UI: UUs obsolete. UBs can’t obsolete, and UIs are usually given enough bonuses that they remain relevant right to the end. Having a UI effectively obsolete may be unique, but it certainly isn’t interesting or enjoyable.

Then...remove the improvement and build something else.

“Oh boy, replacing my unique tile improvement with farms and villages. That’s cuhraaazy! All these worker turns replacing earlier improvements which make the map less interesting and the civ im playing even less differentiated from a template civ is super fun”

/s

 

[Stalker0]

The argument of "that's the way the game is currently designed and it can be dealt with so it's fine" can be used as an argument against any change at all.

Your right, that alone is not enough. But my argument is stronger than that. The Shoshone is a good balanced civ, some even would consider it top tier. G has noted Shoshone is a common dominant Civ in AI matches.

So my counterpoint to you is, if you want to strength the civ with more yields, you need to offer a nerfing of some other component to balance the books.

 

[Gazebo]

I tell yuh what, we’ll move the yields up to gunpowder and see how it goes. If it’s not crazy, we keep it.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I tell yuh what, we’ll move the yields up to gunpowder and see how it goes. If it’s not crazy, we keep it.

G

What about Polder? It's far worse than the Encampment is. Will it get something too?

 

[Gazebo]

What about Polder? It's far worse than the Encampment is. Will it get something too?

This isn’t about the Dutch. Discuss what it needs in the Dutch thread.

G

 

[crdvis16]

Your right, that alone is not enough. But my argument is stronger than that. The Shoshone is a good balanced civ, some even would consider it top tier. G has noted Shoshone is a common dominant Civ in AI matches.

So my counterpoint to you is, if you want to strength the civ with more yields, you need to offer a nerfing of some other component to balance the books.

My suggestion was to weaken the yields early and add buffs to later techs to make sure it's always competitive but also keep Shoshone in check. The exact yields to nerf early and buff late would be up to G or someone with better knowledge than I to suggest.