Should Hitler be in the game?

[Depravo]

I find it amusing that so many people here can't be bothered to learn that having Hitler in the game would be illegal in Germany, and the publisher would like to sell the game in Germany. Nobody at the publisher cares about these polls. Some of the people voting in these polls actually seem sincere in their belief that this is an open issue, possibly due to ignorance of German law and die Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesprüfstelle_für_jugendgefährdende_Medien

or just google on Jugendschutzgesetz (youth protection law).

These threads are so much spam after a while that the moderators should consider the Paradox Plaza forum moderators' way of simply making a sticky, and locking these threads immediately after they're opened. Folks who want to open a thread discussing why they feel German law should be changed could do it in the off-topic forums. I cite Paradox Plaza since they make Hearts of Iron I & II which are WW2 strategic games and this issue comes up all the time.

As tiresome as it is for you to point it out, it is for me to knock down. I find it amusing you reference Paradox and HoI when that game proves the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

Once again: Hearts of Iron and its sequel allow you to play as and against Hitler and key members of the NS hierarchy including Himmler, Frick, Todt, Heydrich and Goering as well as Tiso, Pavelic, Degrelle and God knows who else. All are correctly named and pictured, and have 'historical' traits and events.

Yet Hearts of Iron is freely available in a German translation in German stores. Bruno Ganz is a free man.

This strongly suggests to me that a politically neutral depiction of Hitler in any Civ IV expansion might be controversial, but it wouldn't be illegal.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Unstated option:
No, because Bismarck and Frederick more accurately represent the German character.

 

[ranger999]

Depravo, I have to admit this is news to me, as I recall this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181449

where Germany was run by a guy in the German-language version called "Hiller", the airforce was run by "Gorink". This has been reversed, then? I had not heard to the contrary. Commander Bello, do you know? Thanks for your compliment by the way; Sie sind sehr gnaedig.

But that does lead to another problem...Civ IV allows slavery & death by overwork, something that Hearts of Iron 2 deliberately does not simulate. You can conquer countries, sure, and draw manpower when you build units, but you cannot reduce manpower in the many evil ways that occurred in WW2. Would Civ IV pass muster if I whip citizens to death AND we add Hitler?

German Govt: We have concerns this game you are publishing sends the wrong message to Germany's youth and is harmful to their moral development.
Take Two: What's wrong?
GG: You have put Hitler in the game, and the game permits simulation of aspects of the Holocaust!
TT: Oh no, no no no. No, that's not it at all.
GG: You can whip people to death for hammers. You are converting population into production by overwork!
TT: You misunderstand. They're not being murdered.
GG: Why is the population reduced, then?
TT: They're stunned from the harsh work. But they're recovering, you know, they return into the city after several turns.
GG: This seems suspiciously like the normal population growth a city would experience after the murder of its citizens.
TT: Trust me, they're coming back.
GG: Why then does the city screen show "We cannot forget your cruel oppression"?
TT: Well, maybe some people leave & don't come back.
GG: So it is a "population transfer" and not outright murder?
TT: Oh no, it's voluntary. They're fed up with the city you see. They're pining for the Norweigian fjords.

 

[Commander Bello]

@Ranger999: Unfortunately, I have no idea about HOI which I understand to be a RTS. I am not interested in those kind of games as I prefer to sit here with a good black hot coffee and a cigerette and plan my turns with much time.

 

[Sleijpnir]

It's all about the historical perspective. When you meet Montezuma in the game and he says "Let us each slaughter fifty thousand slaves to celebrate this occasion!" (or something like that), you might find this mildly amusing. The fact that the Aztec empire (and the Incan empire for that matter) endorsed ritual human sacrifice of POWs does not disturb you that much because it all happened a long time ago. Hitler's crimes were committed very recently, and whatever else you might say the sheer scale of them (or ar least the general perception of their scale) is a lot worse than the crimes comitted by, say, Stalin and Mao. So from an entirely objective non-emotional point of view, he should be included. But doing so would cause so much controversy that it is probably not a good idea.

 

[Drogear]

If Stalin or Mao is in it would be hard to argue against Hitler... same same but different...

But I see no use of having Hitler as a standard leader for the Germans due to the viability of better options.

Talking about standard vanilla game here.

 

[Shibsta]

I think he should be in it. Why not?

You can play the game in a way to conquer the world if you wish. He would be a good leader for this purpose in the game.

Too much P-C around these days. After all it is a computer game not real life. I've seen worse things in games.

 

[azzaman333]

Before i played civ, i didnt know who Stalin or Mao were. OTOH, i did know who hilter was, and had a broad idea of what he'd done. Hitler is just much more heard about, and is still highly controversial, and its not worth risking the entire civ franchise for 1 leader.

 

[Sohan]

My simple answer is this: Hitler had a huge impact on history, but he did not have a huge impact on the development of Germany. Furthermore, several other leaders have demonstrated greater leadership qualities. In terms of sheer impact, people like Frederick the Great, Otto Von Bismarck, and Frederick Barbarossa all seem like better candidates. Without them, the German nation-state might not have existed at all. Hitler can't claim to have helped turn Germany into a nation-state, although he is probably one of the better representations of modern-esque Germany at war. Except maybe for Otto von Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhelm of course.

 

[baptiste]

I don't see the option "No, because the game would become prohibited".


Same thing for Israel, for instance.

It's just a game, adding controversial things would not change ANYTHING in gameplay, and would create frustration and useless debate. As could be some "wonders" like Birkenau or "civics" like ethnical cleansing.

The question about the (obvious) influence on history Hitler had does not changes anything in those points.

 

[Depravo]

Depravo, I have to admit this is news to me, as I recall this thread:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181449

where Germany was run by a guy in the German-language version called "Hiller", the airforce was run by "Gorink". This has been reversed, then? I had not heard to the contrary. Commander Bello, do you know? Thanks for your compliment by the way; Sie sind sehr gnaedig.

Bugger me. Well this is news to me. Thing is, I helped beta HoI2 and there was no indication in the files that the German version had been altered in any special way to 'denazify' it.

Pathetic, I call it, but I suppose if it gets around the Alice-in-Wonderland bollocks legislation that seems to exist in Germany the German version could have 'German Leader' or 'Hilter' or whatever. Let the rest of us enjoy something like free expression while we still have it. If we've got to the stage everything has to be tailored to suit the country with the most oppressive laws for 'market share' then I just don't wanna live.

But that does lead to another problem...Civ IV allows slavery & death by overwork, something that Hearts of Iron 2 deliberately does not simulate. You can conquer countries, sure, and draw manpower when you build units, but you cannot reduce manpower in the many evil ways that occurred in WW2. Would Civ IV pass muster if I whip citizens to death AND we add Hitler?

OTOH you do have 'strategic bombing', nukes and such rationalisations as certain leader traits improving foreign manpower or IC efficiency - what do you suppose that represents?

Buggered if I know how Der Untergang ever got made if the German authorities are so completely nutless regarding their own recent history.

 

[naterator]

Hitler's crimes were committed very recently, and whatever else you might say the sheer scale of them (or ar least the general perception of their scale) is a lot worse than the crimes comitted by, say, Stalin and Mao

i'm confused by what you mean by "the general perception of their scale", i believe stalin was directly responsible for more outright murder, and mao was responsible for more death, which puts hitler at #3 on that list, by my perception.

 

[The Lardossen]

Well if you need to build an empire in a game you should be able to pick all leaders that had a big empire in the past. Hitler's empire lasted for maximum four years. That is not enough. If he controlled at least half of europe for at least a few decades, he might could have been considered IMHO.

 

[Xanikk999]

Well if you need to build an empire in a game you should be able to pick all leaders that had a big empire in the past. Hitler's empire lasted for maximum four years. That is not enough. If he controlled at least half of europe for at least a few decades, he might could have been considered IMHO.

What about napoleans empire? His didnt last very long and hes in the game.

Length of empire is not an issue of wether a leader/civ should be included. What matters is a fair geographical range and influence. And hitler had quite in influence on the world.

Just look at some german laws.

 

[SilentDemon]

In the end, it's somewhat ridiculous that he isn't in this game. If you're going to make a list of the greatest and most influencial leaders throughout history / time periods, he has to be considered closer to the top than the bottom.

 

[SilentDemon]

Forget about hitler.
what is the purpose of putting this up on a regular basis?
He's not there.
mod it if you want.

He shouldn't be neglected, that's the purpose.

 

[SilentDemon]

It clearly is disgusting - to say the least - to see these "polls" come up again and again. Seems that certain people don't get their lesson from history.

About the argument "civ is a game for adult" people, I only can laugh. This thread clearyl shows that minors are attracted by controversal figures like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. Drooling with excitement they seem to see themselves in a black uniform.
Absolutely disgusting!

There is nothing disgusting or adolescent about wanting the other very possible aspect of leadership being a game that assesses the greatest civilizations and leaders of history, regardless of whether people consider it "evil" or "bad." It is, nevertheless a viable way of leading, and in many ways has proven to be very successful. Denying this is in some small way somewhat similar to burning books .

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Nope, but I guess if you have WWII scenario, you kind of need to include him.

 

[Pawel]

That's a very different thing, though. I wouldn't have any problem with that. Firaxis could include the graphics in a scenario of their own for all that I care. I find it hard to understand why they did feel the need to include Mao and now Stalin in the basic game. But three wrongs don't make a right...

 

[SilentDemon]

Really, i mean did he achieve his goal?

Did he not end up killing himself?

Kinda sounds like a loser to me. I think we remember him simply because he is responsible for so much death. He never achieved any sort of greatness.

Ah, I was waiting for this. Go read some history books, the greatness of Nazi Germany and Hitler is absolutely astounding after you have studied it a bit. Did you realize that during this time the Nazis:

The leading innovators of rocket technology for their time (V2s etc.)
Had the best tanks at the onset of WW2
Were the first to use radio communications in their tanks / armored vehicles
Had the most well trained and organized military beginning WW2
Created the luger, which almost became the standard side arm instead of the colt 45 for the U.S. military.
Went from one of the least to one of the most industrialized countries
Defeated France
Defeated Poland
Very nearly defeated Britain
Waged campaigns in North Africa, controlling vast amounts of territory
Were re-writing their own versions of history and had an active archaeology campaign to do so
Had some of the best generals in all of history (Rommel etc.)
Had support from numerous U.S. businessmen and lobbyists (Henry Ford...)
Waged war against Russia, Britain and was fighting in North Africa and winning at a point
Adolf Hitler was elected democraticly, don't forget.
Germany went from economic blight, debt and hyper-inflation to prosperity
Germany went from relatively no military to the best in the world
Had extreme instances of propoganda and innovation, such as Zepplins and some of the first ever television broadcasts.
American forces molded their infantry divisions around German divisions (focused around machine gun protection)
Germans possessed some of the best machine gun technology at this time
German warships were considered some of the best that were created at this era.
Tiger tanks are widely considered some of the best tanks ever made for their time.
The German airforce was one of the most potent in the world at this time
The nazis had the largest air transport plane (originally designed to be a glider) created during the war, which could transport infantry as well as tanks.
In the process of making this glider transport the germans devised the first functional plane that was 2 planes sharing the same engines.
Researched unusual weaponry systems such as: Sound amplification weaponry, vortex guns, radioactive space shuttle systems, submersive tanks and more.
Germans also had some of the best and most impressive cannon technologies and applications. (Including I believe the biggest cannon ever built to date.)

These are only a few things to name, for a laymens look at things watch some of whats on the history channel, you'll be impressed by how much there actually is regarding the might of the German army at this time period. Also, keep in mind, in the game already there is a quote by Hitler, as well as the "rocketry" technology, "facism," "radio," panzer tanks, and other instances where it is clear that firaxis did have them in mind, but they simply can't put them in because of political correctness. To say that "he never achieved any sort of greatness" is just ignorant, he is just as if not more prominent a historical figure than Stalin, or some of the other historical figures in the game. Much of the modern world has been shaped because of the actions of this man, go study up on him and you'll see what I mean.