ranger999 said:
Anti-semitism, on new-fangled "racial scientific" grounds (helped by good old Christian anti-semitism on older "they killed Jesus!" grounds) was a fundamental tenet of Nazi political & government philosophy. While the Nazis may have applied the Jew label to many they disagreed with, SilentDemon and others in the thread seem to be under the impression that this was no more than a matter of calling someone a counter-revolutionary or a terrorist. Yet this doesn't change the ultimate extermination policy that killed 5-6 million Jews. Unlike the Indians in America, whose children were seized, placed into boarding schools & beaten for speaking their native tongue, the Jews in the Third Reich were simply killed based on ancestry. That a few thousand "wertvolle Juden" survived doesn't mitigate this. If the Jews had "only" had their property stolen & been moved into crowded ghettos & left there at the time Germany surrendered, this discussion might be different and we'd be comparing them to Native Americans on reservations.
But instead, resources were expended on killing them on an industrial scale at a time the German war effort was faltering, for no reason other than that they were Jews. Instead of using the mass of them as slave labor, they were killed as the ideological imperative of the state to exterminate them took precedence over practical matters on a large scale. What you must realize is that they were killed on an industrial scale for being Jewish. Even after conquering Ukraine & western Russia, instead of simply killing everyone in sight, the Nazis left millions of Slavs were alive under their yoke to produce food & engage in slave labor. Low as they were on the racial totem pole in Nazi ideology, they were still considered useful as subjects & slaves. The Jews didn't even merit that, and the Nazis expended much effort on separating them out from the local population, when they could have killed on a more widespread scale with less effort.
Since an anecdote about a purportedly Jewish naval officer caught someone's fancy, I offer this in return: When Otto Ohlendorf, commander of Einsatzgruppe D (one of the mobile killing squads in Ukraine & Russia) encountered an obscure Crimean sect known as the Krimchaks, he had to ask his superiors for directions, as he could not determine whether or not they were Jewish in ancestry. The answer he received from Adolf Eichmann: to err on the side of "safety", the Krimchaks were to be executed. (They were.)
I won't offer an argument for or against why the Nazis might be more or less evil than other regimes of the 20th century, but I did wish to point out that it was not simply a matter of wanting someone's land or company, and then going back to invent reasons why they were Jewish. The Nazis' fixation was on Jewish blood, and they went to great lengths to carry out their "purification" schemes in what they thought was an "appropriate" manner.
Edit: clarify paragraph.
"Anti-semitism, on new-fangled "racial scientific" grounds (helped by good old Christian anti-semitism on older "they killed Jesus!" grounds) was a fundamental tenet of Nazi political & government philosophy. "
Nobody is arguing that, I have simply said there are also other considerations to be had when discussing this time period and the usage of the phrase. It is not so simple as many people make it out to be.
Actually the terms are in very many ways synonymous. How many times have you seen american media refer to the insurgents in Iraq as "Terrorists," which by definition they usually are not. How many times in news and government have Iranians been referred to as "Arabs" which they technically aren't. There is a reason for oversimplification, it is propoganda and it very easily invokes nationalism.
"Yet this doesn't change the ultimate extermination policy that killed 5-6 million Jews. Unlike the Indians in America, whose children were seized, placed into boarding schools & beaten for speaking their native tongue, the Jews in the Third Reich were simply killed based on ancestry. That a few thousand "wertvolle Juden" survived doesn't mitigate this. If the Jews had "only" had their property stolen & been moved into crowded ghettos & left there at the time Germany surrendered, this discussion might be different and we'd be comparing them to Native Americans on reservations."
Agreed it doesn't change the extermination policy, but nevertheless Native Americans were on a percentage scale nearly annhiliated as a race, there are a few thousand left in the *world* today, compared to the millions that once existed and the millions of jews that still remain to carry on their legacy. This discussion shouldn't be being had you are right, Native Americans were treated equally badly if not worse in some instances. If you believe that they were only "seized, placed into boarding schools & beaten for speaking their native tongue," you have very little knowledge of this point in history. Native Americans were on many instances mutilated and decapitated, and also in many instances simply slaughtered by american armies. There are accounts of American military running around in a frenzy after battles with pieces of women and children strewn from their bodies (wearing things like uterus's on their heads) in celebration of their victory. Reservations may in many ways be compared with to concentration camps, as not only were natives starved in some instances but also forced into entire different ways of life than they had become accustomed, more so than the jews were changed culturally.
"But instead, resources were expended on killing them on an industrial scale at a time the German war effort was faltering, for no reason other than that they were Jews."
Were not Native Americans systematicly and industriously wiped out to serve westward expansion and economic / territorial gains just because they were native americans who were "there?"
"Instead of using the mass of them as slave labor, they were killed as the ideological imperative of the state to exterminate them took precedence over practical matters on a large scale."
Although it is true that the jews were considered lesser peoples and were in more instances left to die than not, they still were indeed on many accounts used for slave labor, so although your comparrsion has some merit it is not entirely accurate.
"Since an anecdote about a purportedly Jewish naval officer caught someone's fancy, I offer this in return: When Otto Ohlendorf, commander of Einsatzgruppe D (one of the mobile killing squads in Ukraine & Russia) encountered an obscure Crimean sect known as the Krimchaks, he had to ask his superiors for directions, as he could not determine whether or not they were Jewish in ancestry. The answer he received from Adolf Eichmann: to err on the side of "safety", the Krimchaks were to be executed. (They were.)"
This supports my previous claim that the term "jew" was used to describe *anyone* who had differences of opinion or ideology from the system rather than being specifically attached to all those people of which had jewish ancestory.
"I won't offer an argument for or against why the Nazis might be more or less evil than other regimes of the 20th century, but I did wish to point out that it was not simply a matter of wanting someone's land or company, and then going back to invent reasons why they were Jewish. The Nazis' fixation was on Jewish blood, and they went to great lengths to carry out their "purification" schemes in what they thought was an "appropriate" manner."
Again, nobody has denied that this was the case, and your previous statements are very suggestive over trying to prove a case that they were "more evil." All that has been done has been to examine the situation further than the simplifications that you have provided as there are many other considerations to be made.