Should I refuse to serve in the settlements?

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Military is not a democracy.

 

[Josu]

I understand that you have a real big dilemma which only your concience can solve.

you said that people who denies to serve in the settlements go to jail. This means that the systems enjails people that dissents from the official position. My question is, do you really want to attend the university in a country that enjails people who dissents?From the most absolute ignorande, does really it worth it?

With these questions I am not judging you, I just want you to put your ideals and your goals in a pair of scales.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am enlisting in the IDF by the end of the year, give or take a few months. I have also decided to engage in a boycott of settlement products. But as an Israeli soldier the likelihood is high that I'll eventually have to do service in a settlement or Palestinian town. Should I refuse? I'll be put in military jail and will probably alienate my relatives if they find out. And simply being put on watch duty or something isn't going to harm the Palestinians much more, but the fact is that I'm being complicit in it.

I sincerely wish you to stay safe. I hope you don't see anything which harms you, let alone be more directly harmed. The army is tough for anyone, let alone when you may be stationed in a dangerous location, so i repeat that i hope honestly you won't face anything you cannot handle.
Obviously i still do not agree with your views on the Israel-Palestine situation, but i definitely hope you'll be safe.

 

[warpus]

Actually, one of my main motivations in moving to Israel is getting into their universities.

So why not do that and skip the IDF? It seems like you're set on IDF though, for some reason

 

[Formaldehyde]

I am enlisting in the IDF by the end of the year, give or take a few months. I have also decided to engage in a boycott of settlement products. But as an Israeli soldier the likelihood is high that I'll eventually have to do service in a settlement or Palestinian town. Should I refuse? I'll be put in military jail and will probably alienate my relatives if they find out. And simply being put on watch duty or something isn't going to harm the Palestinians much more, but the fact is that I'm being complicit in it.

How shocking based on your previous posts. Kudos on both grounds.

 

[Kyriakos]

+1

 

[Mouthwash]

Please do note that the moral circumstances regarding the settlements are rather vague and that the reasons why the settlements are illegal before Palestinian law are often not more justified than the settlements themselves, as the death penalty exists for Palestinians who voluntarily relinquish land to foreign nationals including Israelis. While I strongly disagree with the ideological justifications of the settlers, I feel that supporting any boycott of the settlements means a tacit support for Palestine's policy of sentencing Palestinian people to death over a fundamentally victimless crime. Do note I'm not trying to argue into changing your opinion, merely to offer an additional perspective.

It might, but what does that have to do with it? That's the PA's crime. I'm helping both nations by putting pressure on the settlers, and I won't even indirectly cause more Palestinians to be executed.

I understand that you have a real big dilemma which only your concience can solve.

you said that people who denies to serve in the settlements go to jail. This means that the systems enjails people that dissents from the official position. My question is, do you really want to attend the university in a country that enjails people who dissents?From the most absolute ignorande, does really it worth it?

With these questions I am not judging you, I just want you to put your ideals and your goals in a pair of scales.

Um, I'm a soldier. Who'll be refusing an order. Of course I'll be jailed.

So why not do that and skip the IDF? It seems like you're set on IDF though, for some reason

Well, I'll be drafted anyway. It might be possible for me to manufacture an exemption given the sheer ineptitude of the Israeli bureaucracy, but it will make it much harder to get a job and probably to get into a university anyway.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You might be able to get "special treatment":

In addition to granting exemptions, the committee can also recommend that an enlistee be allowed "special treatment" (ibid., 2). For example, the committee can recommend that the individual be assigned to a non-combatant position or be exempted from carrying a weapon so as to fulfil his or her military service without compromising his or her beliefs (ibid., 2).

But it doesn't sound like it is very easy to qualify, as it was in the US and elsewhere when there was a draft:

The committee determines if a claim for exemption is "truly conscientious, and not politically, socially or otherwise motivated" (ibid., 2). Even if an individual's motives are deemed "genuine," the committee will reject the claim if it appears to be based on "civil disobedience" rather than contentious objection (ibid., 2). Civil disobedience is defined as

…a form of protest, one that is motivated by ideological and political opinions and is oriented to influence a change in State policy; thus, it is usually performed publicly by numerous people, trying to "get a message across" to the authorities. The individual's needs and conscientiousness are not the reasons behind this phenomenon. (ibid., 2)

Moreover, the committee will not support a claim that it determines is based on "selective objection" (ibid., 3). In other words, the claim will be rejected if it stems from "ideological and political beliefs" that correlate to "the prevailing circumstances under which duties need to be performed by the army" (ibid., 3) The government document states that being in the army inherently means individuals cannot choose which orders they wish to follow (ibid., 3).

My advice would be to contact Israeli organizations which specialize in this matter. They will likely know quite well what is typically considered to be acceptable reasons and what is not, as well as the implications for doing so.

 

[Mouthwash]

You might be able to get "special treatment":



But it doesn't sound like it is very easy to qualify, as it was in the US and elsewhere when there was a draft:

My advice would be to contact Israeli organizations which specialize in this matter. They will likely know quite well what is typically considered to be acceptable reasons and what is not, as well as the implications for doing so.

I know that Benny Morris was sent to jail for refusing, and I'm even more pessimistic in the current political climate. But I'll see what can happen. Worst comes to worst, I'll just serve in the territories, but won't do anything that I find unconscionable.

 

[warpus]

Ah, I thought it was a "University" or "Military" thing, and that you couldn't do both. Doesn't seem like you'd have time for both, but what do I know about the Israeli military.

 

[Mouthwash]

Ah, I thought it was a "University" or "Military" thing, and that you couldn't do both. Doesn't seem like you'd have time for both, but what do I know about the Israeli military.

No, I'm going to college after my service!

 

[warpus]

Dude, skip the service and go to uni/college instead! That way you won't have to butt heads with your morals or whatever AND you wont' have to kill any people.

 

[Mouthwash]

Dude, skip the service and go to uni/college instead! That way you won't have to butt heads with your morals or whatever AND you wont' have to kill any people.

Already told you why that would be bad for me, and I'm not changing my mind.

 

[Kozmos]

In vein of those obnoxious motivational pictures be open to what's coming next, even if its murder, crippling, mind-numbing exhaustion or sensory-isolation in dark holes. What is life without a few regrets? You have to taste the world so you can look down on all those who didn't.

 

[Borachio]

I don't know the answer to this one. I'm not sure there even is an answer to this kind of dilemma.

I'd go with not over-thinking it, myself.

If I was definitely sure I wanted to cast my lot in with Israel (and why not?), then I'd just go with whatever the prevailing politics are at the time. What else can an individual do?

Sure, that will probably involve compromising some high-faluting ideals I might have about this or that. But can I be certain that my ideals are really correct? Are they really worth taking a stand about?

I mean, they may be worth it? But really? Are they?

And in any case, is the whole "casting in my lot with Israel" thing really worth it, either?

 

[Joecoolyo]

No offense Joe, but doesn't this make you feel like a bit of a bad jew?

Our hero Mouthwash here is going back to defend the motherland. He is willing to spill his blood for his people. He has got some balls.

A bad Jew? For what? I'm an American, America is my homeland, and my people live here. Sure, Israelis share a common heritage and religion with me, so I have some affinity for them, but they're not my countrymen. I don't speak their language, I don't share their culture (well, to the extent of which they don't share mine), and I've never been there.

If Mouthwash was going to spill his blood defending "the motherland", in reference to me, that would be America.

I already do. I'm a dual citizen.

But you also hold American citizenship, correct? Get rid of the Israeli one and problem solved. That's what I meant.

Mandatory draft/service is something I always found terrible. Of all things that should be voluntary, military service is number one.

 

[useless]

Is there not a similar programme for conscientious objectors in Israel?

 

[Camikaze]

It seems kinda strange that the US would allow a citizen to fight for a foreign military, or that Israel would allow a foreign citizen to fight for its military. Surely there's a matter of divided loyalties in there somewhere. Would this not in some way impact on your dual citizenship?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Mercenaries fight for foreign governments all the time. And it's not like the US and Israel will be engaged in war any time soon.

 

[FriendlyFire]

+1

You Laugh now but the Germans are taking over Greece very soon.