Should Joe Harker's keshik move be made mandatory?

[Methos]

It's only "reloading" (to gain advantage) if making that move affects what you would have done.

That depends on your definition of reloading. As a HOF Staff member are definition is more strict and to be honest, I prefer it that way.

If your child jostles your arm while moving a unit and it lands on the wrong square, do you reload? I do, in that situation.

With the HOF rules, your game would be rejected as we consider that reloading.

I realize that the Longbow poll closed before the contaminated information ever came around, but IMO that doesn't matter. A move was still made and the game wasn't saved. IMO, I don't care if someone mistakenly moved a worker one tile over because they didn't realize it was selected, that game should be saved and played on from that point. Yes, my definition is strict, but anyone who submits to the HOF knows our guidelines and plays by them.

The DG doesn't necessarily play by these type of guidelines, but that doesn't mean I can't still follow them. Plus, in all honesty, I do this with my own games.

 

[DaveShack]

The DG doesn't necessarily play by these type of guidelines, but that doesn't mean I can't still follow them. Plus, in all honesty, I do this with my own games.

I respect and admire your position, but believe it is my right and obligation to explain the opposing view so that the people can make an informed decision.

The demogame tradition is to completely ignore the illegal action and ban the people who talk about it long enough to ensure the game moves forward without contamination. We had already broken that tradition long before this poll was started, mostly because I didn't think the game would survive with nearly half the citizens unable to post.

I'm about ready to submit my first HOF game, in which I'm following the HOF rules. Not important for this discussion, just a confirmation that I follow the rules of the places where I play.

 

[Methos]

but believe it is my right and obligation to

I agree. Everyone has that right and hopefully is using it, so long as, like we both have said, everyone understands its peoples opinion, which are neither right nor wrong. Reloading comes a long the same lines of an opinion in many regards, it is based off of the definition of those who are in charge or have setup the rules. I do not believe this DG has ever formally defined what reloading and replaying of turns is. Nor do I honestly believe we need to.

I'm about ready to submit my first HOF game

Welcome aboard!

 

[donsig]

For the record, when I play GOTMs and hit the wrong button by mistake I accept my fate and move on. (And then play a bit more carefully!)

Our DG tradition is not as clear cut as DaveShack has argued. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named gave us a royal going over at the start of the last Civ IV DG and it was decided that we'd follow the results of polls even after we learned they were tainted. That situation was not quite the same as the one we're dealing with here but, then again, I doubt we've had a situation before where the designated player opened the save and performed an irreversible action without resaving. As far back as I've been in the democracy games (since the first Civ III DG about five years ago) we've always stuck with what the DP did whether it was legal or not. I see no reason for this time to be any different.

 

[Provolution]

In light of Conroes latest discovery, this poll is more or less irrelevant, as the odds remains the same, 29.4 %. No new information has been gained and the game goes on, regardless of the principle of this outcome. The doubletile move is not as magic as we originally thought.

 

[DaveShack]

Findings:

The 1st vote was recorded with a timestamp, low order digits, of 831070.
The last vote was recorded with a timestamp, low order digits, of 998267.

Due to a vBulletin bug, one of the votes for option 1 was recorded twice. Thunderfall has reported the bug to vBulletin. The correct score is 6-5-2. We are not the first to have encountered it, it has appeared in site feedback as multiple entries in a public poll.

The difference between the last vote and the preceding vote is 26055 time units. I say this vaguely because I'm not certain whether the time unit is 1 second or something less than a second. The last vote occurred at least 3 hours, with a most likely answer of 7 hours after the next to last vote. More precision is possible with a followup question or a peek at the forum code, but it is certain from the magnitudes of the numbers that the next to last vote was recorded before the play session, and the last vote was recorded after the play session.

FWIW this closes the books on the question of what was visible at the start of the play session.

 

[donsig]

FWIW this closes the books on the question of what was visible at the start of the play session.

I'm not sure what your findings reveal. Can you explain it in English? Also, it wasn't this poll but this one that we wanted proof of the vote at the time of the game play session.

 

[DaveShack]

The vote in this poll as of the start of the play session was 5-5-2.

If you were talking about the other poll, it was 5-4-1 at the start of the play session. Nobody (else) questioned the result of that poll, and it had no bearing on what happened.

Disregard LBV2 wins, but has no effect, because the previous decision from before LBV2 stands.

LBV2 wins (disregarded)
Force JH Move tied (thus loses)
Attack with 2nd keshik if first fails, DP decides
LB V1 wins (attack with LB)

 

[Chieftess]

I'm not sure what your findings reveal. Can you explain it in English? Also, it wasn't this poll but this one that we wanted proof of the vote at the time of the game play session.

In other words, the forum software is allied in a conspiracy against our democracy!

It means that a vote was counted twice instead of once. i.e., say the current vote is 6-4 (yes vs. no). Someone votes no, and it's counted twice due to the bug. It's 6-6, not 6-5.

 

[dutchfire]

In other words, the forum software is allied in a conspiracy against our democracy!

It means that a vote was counted twice instead of once. i.e., say the current vote is 6-4 (yes vs. no). Someone votes no, and it's counted twice due to the bug. It's 6-6, not 6-5.

Wait a second, so basically all the poll results in our entire history could have been wrong? That's a serious issue! Does TF have some information on when/how this can happen?

 

[DaveShack]

I know the likely cause, but it would be dangerous to discuss it due to risk that someone could use that to learn how to exploit it all the time.

 

[Provolution]

This is one of the very reasons public polls are preferred, so we are not having any open window for phantom votes, vote rigging and so on.
This is why parliamentarians vote by person, not by ballot.

 

[donsig]

The vote in this poll as of the start of the play session was 5-5-2.

I posted this poll at 1:52 pm (my time) on 7/7. I made it a two day poll. Does than mean it closed at 1:52 pm (my time) on 7/9? The announcement to start the game play session was made at 10:43 am (my time) on 7/9 so if the poll was to close at 1:52 pm (my time) then there was less than four hours to go in the poll - a period during which another vote was made. Now, if that last vote wasn't the one that was counted twice then shouldn't the vote have read 6-5-2 at the time the play session began? Does your 5-5-2 vote tally count the extra vote or not DaveShack?

 

[DaveShack]

Answered via PM. Depending on the answer, someone might learn how to make the double vote bug happen at will. The in-game decision was made using what the poll total showed, which is what really mattered.

 

[MOTH]

I think the last vote was me. I realized that after I voted the play session had already started. I think it could have been me who (accidentally) did the double vote. Dave, feel free to PM me and I can tell you what I think happened to get the double vote if it will help chase down the bug.

 

[Cyc]

I believe the point Provolution is a good one. All you people who are afraid to vote in public would do well to learn from this.

 

[donsig]

Well, I haven't seen an explanation of the poll problem yet regarding whether it happens only in private polls or not. In any event now that the problem has been prought to light, once it is fixed there should be no problem with private polls.

BTW, I'll be happy to vote in public once our polls are taken seriously and we have officials (and mods) who follow the DG rules.

 

[DaveShack]

If you think a DG rule has been broken, you are most welcome to take legal action.

The problem occurs with public polls too, but it is obvious because the user's name shows up more than once in the list of voters.

 

[donsig]

I have requested an investigation. See the judicary thread.

 

[Nobody]

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named gave us a royal going over at the start of the last Civ IV DG./quote]

Voldemort was here!!??!