Should we allow Infanticide?

[Mr. Dictator]

Do you agree with it? Or do you draw the line earlier than that?

For the record, by "Well into the third trimester" Useless means "A week before birth."

That's not my bowl of guacamole, but what do I care if someone disagrees?

 

[Patroklos]

Eh, there is a difference. Killing is just ending a life. That could mean a person or a non person. That could me in self defense or for convienience.

Murder is specific subset of killing and is completely appropriate in this context.

So depending on your POV murder is not just a word selected for effect. "Slaugher" sure, but not necessarily murder.

 

[Patroklos]

That's not my bowl of guacamole, but what do I care if someone disagrees?

For the same reason I care if someone goes around murdering three year olds, fifteen year olds, forty year olds or eighty year olds.

Do you als not care about that? Not your bowl of guacamole? Can I come over to your place with a butchers knife and a body bag without you raising an eyebrow?

 

[Mr. Dictator]

For the same reason I care if someone goes around murdering three year olds, fifteen year olds, forty year olds or eighty year olds.

Do you als not care about that? Not your bowl of guacamole? Can I come over to your place with a butchers knife and a body bag without you raising an eyebrow?

Opinions are actions now?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Murder is specific subset of killing and is completely appropriate in this context.

Are you talking about the "Brutal inhumane" definition?

 

[GhostWriter16]

The issue is the use of as colourful wording as possible for emotional impact only. You can easily call it killing and it will still mean the same, but murder sounds so much sexier. Slaughter of the unborn is even more horror-move-title-esque. It's not helping the discussion and it's not catchy enough. You need to get some alliteration going. Go the full Monty. Genome Genocide or Baby Butchering.

Well, "Killing" encompasses everything from me hunting a rabbit to you burglerizing my house with a gun and me shooting you on the way in, to me premeditating to kill you for no good reason, to abortion to infanticide and to every other possible situation under the sun. Saying "Killing is wrong" can only be done by a vegan pacifist. Not most of us.

"Murder is wrong" covers only a subset of the above. Basically the premeditation, the infanticide, and...

The abortion? That's what the debate is over. But "Murder is wrong" doesn't cover either the killing of the rabbit or the self-defense scenario. That's the whole point.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No one will disagree murder is wrong.

But when you state: Abortion is murder, you're not stating fact, you're stating opinion. So you have to admit that technically you should always pre-empt that with: "in my opinion". To prevent that you could simply say you're against killing a foetus. It's perfectly clear and there's no ambiguity you might be talking about a rabbit.

Murder is wrong. That's not the debate. We all agree murder is wrong. We do not all agree that abortion is murder.

 

[GhostWriter16]

No one will disagree murder is wrong.

But when you state: Abortion is murder, you're not stating fact, you're stating opinion. So you have to admit that technically you should always pre-empt that with: "in my opinion". To prevent that you could simply say you're against killing a foetus. It's perfectly clear and there's no ambiguity you might be talking about a rabbit.

Murder is wrong. That's not the debate. We all agree murder is wrong. We do not all agree that abortion is murder.

Technically, I agree, but I'm not going to start doing that.

When I say "abortion is murder" its pretty obvious what I'm talking about, even if you disagree with it.

 

[kochman]

No one will disagree murder is wrong.

But when you state: Abortion is murder, you're not stating fact, you're stating opinion. So you have to admit that technically you should always pre-empt that with: "in my opinion". To prevent that you could simply say you're against killing a foetus. It's perfectly clear and there's no ambiguity you might be talking about a rabbit.

Murder is wrong. That's not the debate. We all agree murder is wrong. We do not all agree that abortion is murder.

I've always hated the idea of having to say "in my opinion"... in speech, etc.

I mean, that should be fairly obvious already... and if you have to post that every time you say your opinion... ugh.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I've always hated the idea of having to say "in my opinion"... in speech, etc.

I mean, that should be fairly obvious already... and if you have to post that every time you say your opinion... ugh.

Thank you

 

[Patroklos]

Murder is wrong. That's not the debate. We all agree murder is wrong.

Useless thinks its debatable.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Useless thinks its debatable.

We should note again that Patroklos is saying this even though he's pro-choice.

Useless, can you please just admit that you are wrong?

 

[civ_king]

I acknowledge the existance of other definitions of murder, but when I use the term, I mean a totally unjustifiable murder. I don't care if its legal or not. If its justified, its not murder. If its war, the soldiers aren't committing murder since they are being ordered to do it, but the government could be depending on the war (Usually not though.) If a killing is partially justified, its probably something else, such as manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide, not murder outright.

Now I acknowledge that an alternate definition of murder goes strictly by the law. By that standard, abortion can't be murder unless its illegal (I've talked to Civ_King and he actually uses that definition there too, he says abortion is "Slaughter of the unborn" but not actually murder.) And yet another alternate definition of murder applies any and all killing, regardless of reason, "Murder." (That's when "Justifiable murder" is often used and I don't like that definition.) Some people say any individual killing is murder, but don't apply it to the state (Too inconstant for my tastes.) One can even say a killing has to be both illegal AND unjustifiable to be murder. There's a lot of possible definitions out there. Unless I say otherwise, I'm using the one I first described.

How about unjustifiable homicide?

The issue is the use of as colourful wording as possible for emotional impact only. You can easily call it killing and it will still mean the same, but murder sounds so much sexier. Slaughter of the unborn is even more horror-move-title-esque. It's not helping the discussion and it's not catchy enough. You need to get some alliteration going. Go the full Monty. Genome Genocide or Baby Butchering.

Slaughter of the Innocents?

It's not genocide if it isn't specifically killing of a race and the unborn are neither animals nor being hacked apart

Eh, there is a difference. Killing is just ending a life. That could mean a person or a non person. That could me in self defense or for convenience.

Murder is specific subset of killing and is completely appropriate in this context.

So depending on your POV murder is not just a word selected for effect. "Slaughter" sure, but not necessarily murder.

Slaughter can refer to killing large numbers of human beings, if you look at the number of abortion in the US each year it is a very large number

We should note again that Patroklos is saying this even though he's pro-choice.

Useless, can you please just admit that you are wrong?

When the unborn can survive outside the mother about as well as a newborn pretty much everyone can agree it is a human being

 

[GhostWriter16]

How about unjustifiable homicide?

Not sure what you're asking.

When the unborn can survive outside the mother about as well as a newborn pretty much everyone can agree it is a human being

Well, everyone who's human...

 

[Traitorfish]

It's not genocide if it isn't specifically killing of a race and the unborn are neither animals nor being hacked apart

Yes they are. We all are.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Check the other thread where celtic is howling in red bold underlined italic text: prove it isn't murder.

And indeed I can't. I don't know what definition he is using. That is why I think it's an amigious term. That is why you guys use it.

 

[Patroklos]

And useless bandied about "misogynist" with no relation to the words meaning. I can't help what random Internet posters do, but we all know what murder means and it is the appropriate word to use.

Mind you I only use it to describe one poster her, but I did that aft exhaustively proving he supports abortions for the unborn 99% of people consider peopler. He do considers them people too, I just haven't got him tomflat out say it yet.

Moderator Action: Best to leave other user's viewpoints out of the discussion in this instance.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So, which definition is that?