simple_01 Is This Monkey Craaaazy??

[Andronicus]

Sorry for the delay folks - 3 SGs at once

The good news is that I've completed my turns in the other ones and will play this one today

We did get our first leader early, then seemed to have a lot of elite victories before next leader.
I'm no huge fan of HE.
In AW leaders tend to come quite reguarly.
I've read the increased odds but that doesnt often appear to fit with what happens (maybe its just me).
HE is nice to have if no pressing need for immediate armies, but at present I think we still need a couple of further armies.
Our home continent is large and 2 AC armies to defend west and north with almost obsolete archer army helping out closer to our core would leave us secure, then next army (or 2) could be pillagers. Pentagon is a must at some stage - just not yet.
We have many infrastructure builds due so handbuilding these small wonders not yet a good option

So to summarise my thoughts
Next leader - 2nd AC army, then 1 or 2 pillaging armies, then pentagon, then HE - what do others think?

My priorities for this turn
GA ends next turn -> whip where appropriate and revolt to monarchy ASAP
Dromons, workers, few more units then infrastructure
Research ? -> cavs

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Agree with priorities for leader tasks and in general. Many many dromons can keep our shores safe. Cavs are a ways away, but I see no reason not to beeline for them. We don't need Astronomy to get across the big waters.

 

[choxorn]

In Own9, the forerunner to this game, the AI kept walking right past our two spear army and let it tear up roads endlessly. We could get away with it again. Hey, it's not my fault that that AI is so dumb.

Yeah, the AI is unimagineably stupid, even on high difficulty levels. It's really weird, but you gotta laugh at it! And Adronicus is right, you don't need Pent and HE right now, but getting them later would be good, after you start putting the hurt on the Inca...

 

[gozpel]

As far as I remember, the AI won't attack an army at full health, even if the AI has enough firepower to blow that army to splinters.

Don't trust that thought for a second, I've seen the difference more than once. IF the AI "thinks" they have superior firepower, they can/will attack.

I loaded an one-unit army once (horses) with support. The support was something like 3 spears, 5 swords, 5 archers and a dozen horses and a settler.

They got killed like nothing. Only because the AI had cavs and muskets. I can't tell how it works, but I think the AI take a chance when they have:

A - Stronger units

together with

B - More units

Calculation, yeah right. Even I understand when I'm over powered. Sometimes the AI makes that choice.

If the AI is at war with someone else we would stand a better chance of unloading a one-unit army, but we can't know that. If not, sometimes the AI throw everything they have against a "smaller" force.

So that's a myth. And also the reason why I didn't want to try it.

When we have a force containing of 2-3 dozen strong invaders, then I would be feeling safe.

Btw, scoutsout mentioned something back at page 3 or something. Give me 20 dromons, 39 decent troops and one settler, I'll make you a beachhead.

But I understand your reasoning, I don't just to be the one wasting an army.

 

[gozpel]

For the game:

I didn't have time to do much during my turns, but we need to finish infra. Then we need to sort out the map and dots. I do that after Andronicus's turns, since we will be in a new gov and we can start ICS-ing.

All corrupt towns has to go on food and food only as priority. These extra citizens of course will become our power in research (or sometimes gold-hoarders)

My theory is, any town that can't produce at least 2 shields has to become specialist towns. The more towns we can get to pop 6 the better, so the map and dots has to be carefully planned. Fishing villages is another good strategy, we just build harbors and get pop up.

I think next leader should rush HE, normally I don't like it, but this is AW. 1/16 sounds better than 1/32 to get a new leader and we can afford heaps of armies with all our cities.

If you all prepare for the beach-head theory, I support it fully, of course. I think it's quite doable already in the next few turnsets, IF our silly dromons can cut roads on the tip of the Incan landmass. The enemy won't reach us easily.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

I'm wondering if the AI didn't attack the support units in your one-unit army stack, rather than the army itself, and the army just got in the way. Regardless, the beachhead is gonna matter a lot. I'm thinking of the landing technique that Handy used in the Theodora's Excellent AW Sid Adventure. Cut roads with the dromons in hill territory, land stack that includes settler and a unit to be a sacrifice for shields to rush a wall, land on turn one, build city on turn two, rush walls that pop up on turn three, then let the AI throw itself against a serious defender stack and generate a leader defensively. Could work, eh?

 

[Andronicus]

Turns played report to come soon

Iron mountain successfully pillaged, iron hill - musket fortified there unable to pillage terrain
Also Incans fortified at choke which I tried to pillage to disrupt trade rtoutes and unit passage
Pillaging only hitting about 1 in 10

edit
PS Incans more than happy to attack our dromon stacks from safety of cities

 

[Andronicus]

Preturn

Switches
Adri duct -> worker, (then market, duct) as will have happiness issues at size 7 without market
Nicaea -> worker
Trebizond, Prilep, Septum, Vlad, Yaraslavl, Ohrid, Ani -> court (after calculating which towns in monarchy can get to less than 60% corruption with court) Respective corruption before and after court for these are T 23->15, P 46->33, S 48->33, V 67->48, Y 69->48, O 81->55, A 88->58. I anticipate more corrupt towns being science farms, at least until communism
Edessa treb -> dromon

Whip
dromon in Amorium
settler in Bryansk
court in Brusa

Sell
Rax in Moscow and St P (these will remain 90% corrupt)

IT
Bryansk settler -> worker
Nicaea worker -> HM
Amorium dromon -> dromon
Brusa court -> lib

1) 560AD
dromons bombard Incan galley (1-0)
pillaging dromons go 0/4
whip dromon Inca Stinka
whip to 20 shields then switch back to dromon in sev other corrupt towns
REVOLT -> 6 turns anarchy

IT
Inca Stinka dromon -> dromon
Trebizond court -> market

2) 570AD
pillaging dromons go 1/7 - I was starting to think this bombarding terrain was broken
Andrianopole settled -> worker
Incan galley en route to Juli ruins bombarded to 2/4 (settler/musket seen boarding)

IT
settler / musket land on ex Juli site
Bryansk worker -> worker (produced by chop)

3) 580AD
Sink Incan galley (2-0)
Sink Spanish galley (3-0), 2nd one redlined
New Constantinople settled -> worker
Pillagers go 0/4

IT Spanish request audience - tell em to go jump, better still send their laden galleys our way
Spanish redlined galley hustles home, replaced by fresh fodder

4) 590AD
dromons redline musket at exJuli, eSw d musket (4-0) -> 2 slaves
- leave slaves fortified on island to prevent Incan landings until ready to settle it ourselves
Spanish galley sunk (5-0)
pillagers go 0/4

5) 600AD
pillagers 1/7

6) 610AD
pillagers go 2/9 this time

IT
emerge into monarchy

7) 620AD
major MM resetting all towns for monarchy
all corrupt towns set to max food, hire scientist rather than use <2 food tile
pillagers go 2/10 including iron mountain

IT
Moscow worker -> worker
Adri worker -> market
Sardica court -> market

8) 630AD
pillagers 1/10

IT
galley attacks dromon stack (6-0)
Con lib -> heroic epic (this could be switched to settler if prefer as Con at max size for happiness)
Nicaea HM -> duct
Caesarea market -> pike
Nicomedia worker -> worker
Incans complete GLib at Ollantaytambo (just across the sea from us )

9) 640AD
pillage 1/10

IT
Another attack on dromon stack, win one, lose one (7-1)
- now have sev injured dromons so need return home

10) 650AD
pillage 0/10

 

[TimBentley]

lurker's comment: Remember that a one-unit army is like a redlined three-unit army, which they're willing to attack. The reason they don't attack full-strength armies is not because it's a full-strength army, but because they think they're going to lose if they attack.

 

[Andronicus]

Dromons
This bombarding terrain thingy isnt working too well.
At current rate Incans can reimprove faster than we can pillage (well re-roading the iron may take a might longer).
The AI hasnt been too dumb - it has twice bombarded dromons with trebs when they parked next to cities. Also have been prepared to attack dromon stack.
Despite bombardment giving a first free shot, we are getting weakened and will need to return home to heal.

What dromons are very effective at is dealing with attempted landings - we rule the seas and are sending any trespassing galleys to wateryu graves. This does have the unwanted side effect of no fodder for our elite units to promote on.

What we need is a beach-head to create a killing zone and then can form armies to go pillage.
A possible site is the hill 6SW of Ollantaytambo.
It has a city N/NW of it which would need to be razed to avoid flips.
It has disadvantage of mountain adjacent allowing Incans to safely park there.
Would require a sig force of muskets (? 20) with settler and slave for rushing walls.
Would want to do this before Incans have cavalry.

edit - attached screenie - pink dot is proposed beach-head site, yellow dot existing Incan city

 

[Andronicus]

we need to finish infra. Then we need to sort out the map and dots. I do that after Andronicus's turns, since we will be in a new gov and we can start ICS-ing.

still more infra to do, have also been pushing out more workers as much improving required particuarly in vicinity of our FP city. Priority for ICSing must be food rich regions - ie northen grasslands and eastern swampland (after clearing) although some of these tiles will be used by

All corrupt towns has to go on food and food only as priority. These extra citizens of course will become our power in research (or sometimes gold-hoarders)

Agree

My theory is, any town that can't produce at least 2 shields has to become specialist towns. The more towns we can get to pop 6 the better, so the map and dots has to be carefully planned. Fishing villages is another good strategy, we just build harbors and get pop up.

Your 2 shields theory and my <60% corruption theory work out similar. In my analysis all north of Naissus or NW of Dyrrachium would be excluded from infrastructure builds and support as many scientists as poss. Some towns have no food to grow past size 2 (eg Tambocchocha where i hired a scientist at size 1) With a harbour it could grow larger but would not make more commerce nor producution and would have to pay for harbour.

I think next leader should rush HE, normally I don't like it, but this is AW. 1/16 sounds better than 1/32 to get a new leader and we can afford heaps of armies with all our cities.

Doesnt look likely we will get more leaders at present so buildingh HE in Con is option - completes in 16 turns

If you all prepare for the beach-head theory, I support it fully, of course. I think it's quite doable already in the next few turnsets, IF our silly dromons can cut roads on the tip of the Incan landmass. The enemy won't reach us easily.

Unfortunately our dromons have not been very potent. My thought is preparing to land with muskets - currently 3 turns from invention, so perhaps a landing in 15 turns may be appropriate timing

 

[Andronicus]

City plans
sev borderline core towns require comment
Ani - appears doubtful for useful city, but with court and mined horse hill it can build harbour allowing growth to size 6 and a relatively high commerce town
Naissus - I contemplated abandoning this site (initially settled to grab gems) - it now crowds less corrupt towns to the south. I now think I should have abandoned it - switching now to settler only wastes 3 shields, then can build another settler with no growth allowing option of abandoning
Ankyra - a borderline case as court only gets it to 65% corruption - not worthwhile IMO - let adjacent towns Septum and Yaraslavl use the prime tiles
Varna - badly in need of improving tiles

 

[Andronicus]

The roster is:

goz - second leader = AC army
Andronicus - Crowned Theodora queen
markh - UP
SimpleMonkey - ON DECK
classical hero - started our GA and got us our continent back

 

[markh]

I got it, but have no time now to read all the good stuff. I will get to it tomorrow.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

Good job, Andronicus! You got a lot done for 6 turns of anarchy.

Agree with using Naissus to pop one settler and then abaondon to get another. I still haven't got that trick down, so seeing done right will be instructive.

I believe that the pink dot would be a good beach head. It has more approaches than the spit of land where Vitcos is, but the hills and mountain are a big help. I'd hate to defend on grasslands. If we park some defenders on that mountain we can hold it. Suggest we concentrate dromons on cutting all roads to that landing point. (I'm hoping their aim will improve. ) The question is, is Inca Dude going to take more than 15 turns to get cavs? If he is, then we're in good shape. Save money if we can to upgrade some pikes.

I'd say just handbuild HE in Con right now. If it's only 16 turns that's not terrible.

Basically, I'm just agreeing with all of the above.

 

[choxorn]

Turns played report to come soon

Iron mountain successfully pillaged, iron hill - musket fortified there unable to pillage terrain
Also Incans fortified at choke which I tried to pillage to disrupt trade rtoutes and unit passage
Pillaging only hitting about 1 in 10

edit
PS Incans more than happy to attack our dromon stacks from safety of cities

It looks like the RNG gods favor you no more (either that or the guys who shoot their cannons can't hit the side of a barn ) I guess being in anarchy with an out-of-control country leaves no citizens to worship them, which you need to get luck from them. Hopefully, your dromons will be more lucky next turnset. Now that Queen Theo's back on the throne, she can order her citizens to worship the RNG gods again. But that might not save you from the Incan's wrath. If they manage to get tanks, hope that spearman can actually beat them.

 

[Andronicus]

Overall strategy

Koreans are weak compared to us
Spain are average and behind in tech
Incans are the runaway AI and our only challenge

We need to hurt Incans before they get cavs and rifles
I'm wondering if possibly only a dozen pikes may be enough at beach-head. It will be maybe 15 turns till we have muskets then have to build / upgrade and ship them over. Meanwhile Incans get stronger. Pikes much cheaper - we probably have enough already (with a few spear upgrades) to ship across with all northern cats and a settler and a few slaves. With all our northern dromons we should be able to drop off 20 or more units on D-day with city built next turn and rush walls with slave. If we survive those first 2 turns we will be set - cats and dromons can bombard and we can shift a whole lot of AC over to take out relined units and hopefully promote. Once we have a leader an AC army combined with cats (could be upgraded to trebs once rax rushed) should ensure we start razing cities.
Meanwhile research to cavs, switch off reseach to pay for massive horse -> upgrade having built maybe 50 horse in interim
If we can raze all cities on Incan eastern land (leaving Ollyamtambo till last) we can then get the GLib with Incans weakened the game would be in the bag.

Well lots of ifs ... any thoughts

 

[markh]

I would go with the pikes. Landing on a hill will help a lot and as the Incan land is not railed we might not face too many units on the landing. After the city is beachhead is founded and the pikes fortified they have a decent defensive value. If we can ensure sufficient reinforcement it should be possible to hold the beachhead.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

The two tough parts of this plan are having enough pikes and dromons to ships them over all at once, and that it takes two turns for us to move the dromons into position for landing, giving Inca enough time to move a sizable counterattack into position. We gotta have those roads cut to slow them down.

As a side note, do disbanded slaves actually add shields? I thought only native workers (ones you've actually invested shields in) give shields back. I'd bring along a sacrificial warrior for the disband help in rushing walls for our beach head.

Dromons can also bombard from inside a coastal city, giving us plenty of return fire potential.

 

[Andronicus]

My thoughts for dotmap to ICS the northern food rich grasslands and the eastern swamp after clearing

Dark blue dot is doubtful - will probably crowd a core city Ohrid (is it really that 'orrid close to the marsh lands?)

Red arrows indicate 3 towns worth relocating - Naissus as previously mentioned crowds our core, whilst Yakutsk and Samosata relocations would allow an extra science city

Black line is my suggestion for edge of core. Inside this border towns are improved to maximise production as well as size, but outside this only terrain improvement required is irrigation of tiles already at least 2 food (ie grass, floodplains, oasis etc).

ICSing the far west is a waste at present as these towns would not be able to support more than 1 scientist until railroads

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/650AD_dotmap.JPG