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SKNES III: Bullets with Butterfly Wings

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by SouthernKing, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. ZeletDude

    ZeletDude The Lion

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    To: Whomever it may concern
    From: The Kingdom of Prussia
    CC: Hessia, Wurzburg, Wurttemberg, Saxony-Bavaria


    In the infinite and ever lasting wisdom of the German people, the Duchy of Hessia, the Duchy of Wurzburg, the Duchy of Wurttemberg, the Kingdoms of Saxony-Bavaira and the Kingdom of Prussia, have agreed to the following treaty, in hopes of bettering all Germans living within the borders of the aforementioned nations.

    The German Customs Union

    The Kingdom of Prussia, The Kingdoms of Saxony-Bavaria, The Duchies of Hessia, Wurzburg and Wurttemberg, hereby agree to the following clauses -

    • The signatories of this treaty shall work towards lowering mutual tariffs, eventually resulting in complete free-trade.
    • The signatories shall work towards implementing a common currency.
    • The signatories shall agree to a defensive pact, and any aggression displayed against one member shall be constituted as an attack against all.
    • The signatories agree to work towards the most prosperous outcome for all German peoples.
    • The signatories agree to the work towards open borders between signatories.
     
  2. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Signed, Ludwig XII, Duke of Hesse
    Signed, Ludwig IV, Duke of Württemberg
    Signed, Friedrich II, Duke of Würzburg


    Let this be the dawn of a new era of peace and prosperity in Germany.
     
  3. Arrow Gamer

    Arrow Gamer America's Dictator

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    OOC: SK, could I get a response to the protectorate offers I sent to Florida and and the Freedmen's Republic?
     
  4. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    To: Louisiana
    From: Costa Lina


    The Freedman's Republic of Costa Lina declines the Louisianan offer; we appreciate all that Louisiana has done for our nation over the years, but we must echo the American insinuation of what the true intentions of this offer are. Never again will the people of Costa Lina live under a master, no matter how benevolent that master claims to be.

    To: Louisiana
    From: Florida


    We appreciate your interest in protecting our soil, but Florida does not feel it necessary to cede our sovereignty in exchange for vague offers of protection.

    To: Tunis
    From: Whaheydi Caliphate


    If you fear that we will intrude on your territory, fear not. Our Caliph is most benevolent, and we have no intentions or ill will against Tunis.
     
  5. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    To: Omar Ali, Whaheydi Caliph
    From: Muhammad, Bey of Tunis

    This is good to hear. I had indeed feared that the passions of Whaheydism might overwhelm good sense. While no opportunity for cooperation is immediately obvious, I hope there will be such opportunities in our future.

    OOC: Viz. the front page, the only substitute I can think of for Education is Intellectual Development, but that's quite clumsy.
     
  6. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    OOC:

    @SouthernKing

    What's the difference between Conservative, Moderate, and Liberal? Yes, I do have a general idea of what they are, but I'd just like to hear what your interpretation of those ideologies are for this NES.
     
  7. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Tell you what, I'll actually define all of them, for everyone's benefit. These are, of course, generalizations, and may apply differently depending on the country in question.

    Reactionary: Reactionaries actively seek to return to a previous state of government, rolling back existing reforms and strengthening traditional institutions, such as absolute monarchy and landed aristocracy, and in some cases the further empowerment of the military. In non-western contexts, reactionaries are those figures that are virulently nativist and anti-western, opposing any interaction with the west whatsoever.

    Conservative: Conservatives mostly argue for the preservation of the status quo, without further reforms, but largely without rolling back existing reforms as is the case with reactionaries. They also pursue protectionist trade and economic policies, and in many cases increased power to the military. Conservatives are usually supported by the establishment, whoever that may be, as well as the military, and some of the lower classes. Conservatives in non-western contexts favor limited interaction with the west, but no more.

    Moderate: Moderates take a middle ground between reform and reaction, favoring limited reform, but not going too far. In non-western contexts, moderates are usually the ones favoring extensive interaction with the west while continuing to maintain a native culture and traditions, and moderates are the ones responsible for the modernization of the non-western countries that have successfully done so.

    Liberal: Liberals are reformers, seeking continued strengthening of constitutional, democratic, and popular institutions, at the expense of monarchical autocracy, the entrenched aristocracy, and similar institutions. Liberals in this era also argue in favor of free trade and open markets, with reduced government involvement. Liberals gain support from business, segments of the upper classes, and the burgeoning middle class. In non-western contexts, liberals represent those arguing for full opening up to the west; needless to say, they are not common there.

    Republican: Republicans consist of the radical reformists and revolutionaries who seek a transformation of society. Republicans, true to their name, seek the abolishment of the monarchy, and the immediate empowerment of the masses; some countries call them "Jacobins." In fact, some labelled republican are borderline socialist. Republicans gain their support base largely from students, the lower classes, and other disaffected in society. The revolutionaries that helped create the current European republics would have been labelled republicans in their day.

    Nationalist: Nationalists primarily believe that the government should be the embodiment of the nation-state, and further the interests of the controlling ethnic group of that nation-state. In doing so, nationalists frequently transcend the political spectrum. Nationalists frequently have support from the military in particular. Nationalists of minorities seek greater autonomy/self-determination/independence from the majority group. In certain contexts, particularly where one ethnic group is divided between multiple countries (Germany being the most prominent example), nationalists argue in favor of the creation of a single state for said ethnic group.

    While there have been some thinkers advocating what we'd call socialism, they're usually classified under "Republican." There hasn't been a Karl Marx equivalent so far, and no unifying left-wing ideology has been created. Yet.
     
  8. Neverwonagame3

    Neverwonagame3 Self-Styled Intellectual

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    OOC: Noting for SouthernKing I'm going to need to send in a new set of orders because a vital ally has gone back on their word.

    This is an alternate history. Combined with the fact of stories, I assumed I had room to work with.

    My goal at the start of the game was to make a Hapsburg state which historical Hapsburg leaders would be proud of. This is why I've gone on the offensive, as I need to match France in power or I'll be swallowed up.

    It is also why I play conservative instead of liberal. Playing a liberal Austria-Hungary is the equivalent of shooting myself in the foot. This is because democratic and nationalist ideologies are slowly gaining ground. Historical Liberals proved themselves impotent to stop them.

    Finally, I find it hard to advocate ideas such as Seperation of Church and State with a straight face. This is a minor factor, but while playing a religious character I can only do this in the spirit in which one of you would play a Creationist who believes that the Bible is literally true and God created the world in seven days. It's very hard for me to roleplay properly because it feels ridicolous.

    --------------------------

    EDIT:

    From Austria
    To the New German Powers

    Many of you have alliances with us. You would be going back on your word if your new pact takes precedence over your old agreement.

    We would very much like to join this German pact on the terms discussed anyway. As we have said in the past, we seek strong alliances as a counterweight to France. This would give us them.
     
  9. Arrow Gamer

    Arrow Gamer America's Dictator

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    I think that you're both clouded by your modern day views of religion, and using OOC knowledge to your benefit.

    Both are silly and things you shouldn't do.
     
  10. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    OOC: @Neverwonagame3
    Then you shouldn't have chosen a Liberal country such as Austria-Hungary. It sounds like a conservative or reactionary government would have been better for you to roleplay. If you really wanted to do a conservative/reactionary Austria-Hungary, then you could have at least killed off the current emperor this turn and made his heir much more to your liking. NESes like these just don't work if you don't follow along with the established framework. Don't try to do things you know you can't. It never works out well.

    @SouthernKing
    When are orders due?
     
  11. Neverwonagame3

    Neverwonagame3 Self-Styled Intellectual

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    First, it doesn't count as "clouded" if said views are true. Yes it makes it harder to roleplay this guy, but I admitted that. Imagine the difficulties you'd have trying to play a highly superstitious, 7-day Creationist who doesn't believe in science in modern times and you'll see how much of a problem I have though. It's merely recognising my limitations.

    Second, a wise leader could concievably have seen the problem. The logical conclusion of Nationalism is independence. The logical conclusion of Democracy is a Republic or Constitutional Monarchy. Therefore, something must be done to combat both ideologies.

    A Liberal, however, has no emotive weapon with which to combat said ideologies. In order to do so, a more powerful emotional weapon is needed. As a tool of propaganda, the Catholic Church is the best I can think of.

    Third, DC123456789, I wanted to play a Great Power. However people objected to giving me anything stronger than Austria-Hungary. Therefore, I tactfully went for something a bit weaker. I've already compromised once- I don't want to do so twice.
     
  12. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Well, if you tried this:

    then after the first turn it would make much more sense. It might make your situation quite difficult, though.
     
  13. Arrow Gamer

    Arrow Gamer America's Dictator

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    Well, after reading these posts I'm surprised they gave you even Austria-Hungary.

    Second, it's a game about 1850. Nearly every leader is superstitious and religious. The point of role play is to play a role, not yourself. You shouldn't let your own views or historical knowledge affect how you play the character and the game.
     
  14. Neverwonagame3

    Neverwonagame3 Self-Styled Intellectual

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    DC- I'm trying to bypass my ability to roleplay a Liberal ruler properly, which is horrible. The implicit idea is that behind the scenes Karl has explained all this stuff to my Emperor, and persuaded him that he needs to break the nationalists and democrats then restore a liberal order.

    Arrow Gamer- SK had to give me one of my preferences, which meant either China or a Great Power.

    I can play superstitous or religious, as I said, just not Liberals who are hypocritical about Church and State. An NES is more a game than a roleplay anyway, so I figured I could nudge the matter.
     
  15. Nuka-sama

    Nuka-sama See ya! It has been a fun decade!

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    Your lack of understanding shows that you should NOT be allowed to play in a nes.
     
  16. Arrow Gamer

    Arrow Gamer America's Dictator

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    He had to? The mod doesn't owe you anything, let alone the choice of nation.

    Anyway, you clearly are not able to role play a liberal ruler, seeing as you're, well, not. And I don't see the hypocrisy, unless that he doesn't believe in it. In which case, you clearly don't understand the 1850's.
     
  17. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Not really; I would say it would be equal. While of course you can push your nation to more or less wherever you want, you have to remember that it's a Never Ending Story- it has to make sense within the context. Political ideologies are pretty important in this time period, so it's not really something to take lightly.
     
  18. Neverwonagame3

    Neverwonagame3 Self-Styled Intellectual

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    SK never claimed the right to reject people for nations, and followed the implicit rule that every person gets at least their third preference.

    The hypocrisy is that the character is both a Liberal and a Catholic at the same time. If you call yourself Catholic but don't follow the teachings of the Church, you're no Catholic but a de facto Protestant.

    Just to emphasise the point again- if I play a Liberal, my country is screwed. For Austria-Hungary to both win and adopt Liberal policies is an absurdity.

    -----------------------------------------------
    I'm going to make another Story to try and reduce the dissonance people talk about.

    Leaks about Karl
    Although Karl was meant not to have much influence at all, those pieces of information which leaked to the public about the Austrian government, worryingly for some, suggested otherwise.

    The first major leak was of a conversation in which Karl argued that for a long time in history every Great Power except Austria has expanded. Bosnia was almost insignificant by comparison to the loss of the Austrian Netherlands and Baden. Therefore, Austria had no choice but to try and expand or be destroyed. The Emperor accepted the logic, but was concerned about how he could have a just war of expansion.

    The second major leak was a conversation as to the Emperor's liberal policies. Karl argued to the Emperor that a Liberal policy would lead to doom. This was because it was absolutely essential for the Empire to have an "Emotive Counter"- a strong emotional appeal that could counter that of democracy and nationalism. For this, the Catholic Church was essential, as the Crown had lost much of it's appeal.

    The third conversation leaked was an argument in which Karl argued with the Emperor about his liberal policies. Karl's key argument was how the Emperor could claim he was a Catholic, as opposed to a Protestant, whilst at the same time protesting Church policies and dissenting from Church doctrine. Karl secured a concession from the Emperor that it was a contradiction to be a Catholic and dissent from the Church's opinions on any moral question.

    Rumors that Karl was the one doing the leaking were investigated, but nothing was proved. People assume from what happened next that the Emperor was convinced they weren't true.
     
  19. Shadowbound

    Shadowbound Scourge of God

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    Let's move this into While We Wait, seeing as we just entered the realm of actual politics and religion.
     
  20. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

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    Yes, but I did say that only experienced NESers should pick great powers. This means that I need at least competent people willing to follow the background, which, without sounding like a you know what, it is increasingly clear to me that you are not. I don't need to specifically claim the right to control who plays what in my NES.

    :confused:

    In any case WWW or even the prethread is a better place for the religion stuff.
     

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