Small Observations General Thread (things not worth separate threads)

[Boris Gudenuf]

This. We don't know for sure how many leaders nor how many civs, so it's pure speculation at this point.

An old engineering term is appropriate here - and in too many of the threads regarding Civ VII so far:

S.W.A.G. - a Scientific Wild-A---d Guess

 

[Ornen]

I remember during the Civ5 discussions... there was a guy who wanted dinosaurs as regular civ... I still get a headache from that.

(not talking about the Civ2 dino mod here)

sid meier's dinosaurs when

 

[greenOak]

One thing I noticed from watching the original gameplay video is that you start with 10 science and 10 culture which is in stark contrast to civ VI where the palace gives you 2 science and 1 culture. In civ 6, a couple early monuments could increase your culture by 5-fold, and getting the first contact envoy in scientific or cultural city states would have a large effect on how fast you got through the research and/or civics tree. It looks like early game culture won't be the end all be all anymore (which I think is a good thing). Of course if civ 7's buildings can give 10+ culture we might be in the same situation described above, but based on the screenshots we've seen, building yields seem to be in line with what we've seen in previous iterations of the game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

One thing I noticed from watching the original gameplay video is that you start with 10 science and 10 culture which is in stark contrast to civ VI where the palace gives you 2 science and 1 culture. In civ 6, a couple early monuments could increase your culture by 5-fold, and getting the first contact envoy in scientific or cultural city states would have a large effect on how fast you got through the research and/or civics tree. It looks like early game culture won't be the end all be all anymore (which I think is a good thing). Of course if civ 7's buildings can give 10+ culture we might be in the same situation described above, but based on the screenshots we've seen, building yields seem to be in line with what we've seen in previous iterations of the game.

As I understand it, at the start there are no City States at all - everybody starts as a 'less than city' group or settlement, so there will be none of Civ VI's early bonuses from type City States. I suspect the changes in numbers from 'internal' sources may reflect that change.

 

[Psychotronics]

This does imply that some civilizations will not have a leader. It's a leap from there to "most don't have a leader."

Not necessarily. They could release two leaders which have historically led two civilizations each. An example from my country's history: they could add both Portugal and Brazil, with D. João VI as a leader (please don't, Firaxis).

 

[Lord Lakely]

Have we seen this description of the Tjaty (from the official website) :

• NOT a Great Person but a Civilian Unit (similar to the Unique Missionary the Shawnee get)
• Unique VISIER specifically (Visier is capitalized which implies that's the unit it replaces)
• Restricted to cities that have a Necropolis.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Have we seen this description of the Tjaty (from the official website) :

View attachment 702688

• NOT a Great Person but a Civilian Unit (similar to the Unique Missionary the Shawnee get)
• Unique VISIER specifically (Visier is capitalized which implies that's the unit it replaces)
• Restricted to cities that have a Necropolis.

But compare that to the current (?) in-game description. Should be noted that in previous games, GPs were considered civilian units too.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Have we seen this description of the Tjaty (from the official website) :

View attachment 702688

• NOT a Great Person but a Civilian Unit (similar to the Unique Missionary the Shawnee get)
• Unique VISIER specifically (Visier is capitalized which implies that's the unit it replaces)
• Restricted to cities that have a Necropolis.

Yes, it's quite puzzling. It certainly acts like a Great Person, as we know it from Civ 6. Each one has a different unique ability. So, what is a Visier/Architect, then? And how do you get one, since the Tjaty requires Egypt's unique Quarter?

 

[Lord Lakely]

I suspect "Architect" is the overall name of the Archetype (of the Great Person, or Civil Servant or whatever), and "Visier" is the Antiquity equivalent of an "Architect".

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yes, it's quite puzzling. It certainly acts like a Great Person, as we know it from Civ 6. Each one has a different unique ability. So, what is a Visier/Architect, then? And how do you get one, since the Tjaty requires Egypt's unique Quarter?

Probably the same way: You need to have the associated Quarter. Egypt's unique Civilian can be trained with those that have their Civ's Unique Quarter, makes sense that there are other, common Quarters in the game (strongly implied by Maurya and Maya's uniques that interact with adjacent Quarters) that can be used to recruit other Civilian units.

Definitely a question worth asking Sarah tomorrow though.

 

[AriochIV]

It may be that Great People are built/trained rather than earned. There is, as a certain science officer would say, insufficient data to form a cogent hypothesis.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I suspect "Architect" is the overall name of the Archetype (of the Great Person, or Civil Servant or whatever), and "Visier" is the Antiquity equivalent of an "Architect".

"Visier" has a number of meanings we can derive from the earliest Egyptian examples:

The earliest named is ja-im-hatap, or Imhotep, who was the engineer/builder of the earliest known step pyramid, and a chancellor to rthe Pharaoh, physician, and later credited as a minor God of Healing and patron of 'scribes'.

Another Visier of the Egyptian Old Kingdom is Ptahhatp, author of the oldest book of philosophy discovered, which was basically a textbook for advisors, emphasizing service, commitment, morality, and a good reputation

Finally, Udjahorresnet, or Wedjahorresnet of Amasis' 26th Dynasty and the Persian 27th Dynasty was both physician and naval commander, and acted as advisor to the new Persian leaders to 'bridge' the two cultures.

Visier, then (in the Egyptian context), could have a wide range of attributes/bonuses, ranging from architecture/engineering (even Wonder building), medicine/health, Government administration, diplomacy, and Naval Commander.

 

[ggmoyang]

Random thought, those buildings would really go well together...
(from the Antiquity Age stream)

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Have we seen this description of the Tjaty (from the official website) :

View attachment 702688

• NOT a Great Person but a Civilian Unit (similar to the Unique Missionary the Shawnee get)
• Unique VISIER specifically (Visier is capitalized which implies that's the unit it replaces)
• Restricted to cities that have a Necropolis.

I believe that the Vizier and Architect are two separate generic Civilian Units and the Tjaty is a Unique Unit that combines their abilities. Further proof of the existence of generic 'Great Person' units from the Greek Unique Civilian Unit:

Logios: Unique Scholar Unit. Can only be built in Cities with an Acropolis, and the specific Logios received is random. Each Logios can only be received once. Cost increases per Logios built.

So we know of the existence of Viziers, Architects, Scholars and Commanders (is the latter a Military or a Civilian Unit?). Interestingly, none of these Civilian Units share the same name as their purported Great Person counterparts (Architect vs Engineer, Scholar vs Student, Commander vs General)...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So we know of the existence of Viziers, Architects, Scholars and Commanders (is the latter a Military or a Civilian Unit?). Interestingly, none of these Civilian Units share the same name as their purported Great Person counterparts (Architect vs Engineer, Scholar vs Student, Commander vs General)...

We've also seen a generic merchant, but no existing unique counterpart that I'm aware of.

Edit: Nevermind, the Songhai do.

 

[AriochIV]

I think perhaps the most significant new information from today's stream was that there doesn't appear to be regular great people any more; only certain civilizations can earn great people, and they are from a civilization-specific list, and they are of a predetermined type. Specifically, it appears they are only of the type of that civilization's unique great person unit, if it has one.

On the one hand, that's pretty cool for immersion within a civilization. On the other hand, that means you can only get great people of one type that's limited by your chosen civilization, which seems to either really limit your choices, or else really limit how important great people are to the game.

 

[foggyautumn]

Just a small random thought about "overbuilding" - buildings from obsolete ages having reduced yields, and being able to replace them with updated versions. I think this makes a ton of sense, and especially addresses the weird grind that we've had for the last couple Civ games where starting a new city in 1950AD still requires several boilerplate turns of building monuments, granaries, etc that feels anachronistic. Now in Civ 7, a new city can start building age-appropriate buildings immediately.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think perhaps the most significant new information from today's stream was that there doesn't appear to be regular great people any more; only certain civilizations can earn great people, and they are from a civilization-specific list, and they are of a predetermined type. Specifically, it appears they are only of the type of that civilization's unique great person unit, if it has one.

On the one hand, that's pretty cool for immersion within a civilization. On the other hand, that means you can only get great people of one type that's limited by your chosen civilization, which seems to either really limit your choices, or else really limit how important great people are to the game.

I think that is more likely... the "Great people" are only for specific civs, and so are just another unique. that not every civ needs.

 

[foggyautumn]

I think perhaps the most significant new information from today's stream was that there doesn't appear to be regular great people any more; only certain civilizations can earn great people, and they are from a civilization-specific list, and they are of a predetermined type. Specifically, it appears they are only of the type of that civilization's unique great person unit, if it has one.

On the one hand, that's pretty cool for immersion within a civilization. On the other hand, that means you can only get great people of one type that's limited by your chosen civilization, which seems to either really limit your choices, or else really limit how important great people are to the game.

Right now it's just Greece and Egypt that have lists of "Great People" now called Unique Civilians. It's just another unique, you have to build them with production, and also the two existing examples require you to build their unique district with the two unique buildings before building the unique civilians. I assume that Civs that have unique tileimprovements rather than unique buildings will have that as the prerequisite instead.

It's less choice and more RNG - I don't know how I feel about Egypt's three options in the Tjaty pool that give a small/medium/large amount of production to a wonder, for example. Seems a little unimaginative and I'd feel frustrated knowing I got the strictly worse option.

 

[rocksinmypath]

Observations/thoughts on today's stuff:

- Commanders unpacking and attacking on the same turn, while not allowing the enemy to unpack looks messed up. I understand it requires a promotion, but I can already feel it will be so overpowered it will break the game.
- Hoplites are Infantry, so it looks like Anti-Cavalry unit class is now gone?
- I don't understand why building districts lead to culture bombing. What's the point of gaining new tiles if you can't work those tiles? A settlement might as well start with a single tile and expand to just the ones the player selects.
- What happens when you build an urban district where a rural district is? Do you get to get the population that went to the rural district back? In other words, do you get to build another rural district immediately?
- A little disappointed that the three-right territory limit is back. I was hoping to be able to sprawl cities in strange shapes.
- Number of Exploration Age civs to choose from went from 15 during the initial announcement to 11 today.
- I hope to learn more about diplomacy soon. Specifically, what happens if you choose the "Hostile Greeting" option? Do you just lock yourself out of potential diplomatic actions you can perform with that opponent? If that's the case, I think you should gain influence rather than lose it. Similarly, what will be the motivation for rejecting an opponent's collaboration initiative?