Small Observations General Thread (things not worth separate threads)

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

While I understand the colors being matched to the Leaders for 3-Age identification, French troops, either Royal, Revolutionary, Imperial or later Republican never in reality wore yellow/gold uniforms. The nearest was the special Neufchatel Regiment ceded to Napoleon in 1806:
View attachment 713159
Which in fact was one of the few military units in all of Europe to ever wear 'yellow' coats, so is probably one of the most-painted miniatures units Ever.

I suppose I can get used to it. After all, the aforementioned Royal, Imperial, Rpeublican, etc French at various times wore gray, white, blue, or very light lavender coats, and the old Royal Army had foreign troops in red, dark blue, light blue, and brown coats.
Yellow will just take some getting used to . . .

This is really a problem with tinting systems. Now Civ7 uses 'Base and Trim' color schemes. (Similiar to Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War, though in that game paintings were done in a different screen).
But then again. France under different system uses diffrenent color schemes for their soldiers. the Bourbon France favors white as basecolor. Republics and Bonaparte era prefers blue.
What matters more is unit names. What names will be used? 'Fusiliers' or 'Imperial Guards' ?
Since 'Fusiliers' aren't used as generic unit names in place of Line Infantry. it is best being French UU name, which describes French footsloggers since 1680s to this day.

There's a reason why the 18th century and Napoleonic period is one of the favorites among the miniatures modelers and painters: it was the high point of colorful military uniforms and the sheer variety is almost overwhelming. I still have on my shelves a two volume set of watercolor illustrations of Napoleonic uniforms totalling over 500 pages, and it doesn't begin to cover all the varieties of uniforms of the period!

And about Tier 0 US Army using 18th Century uniforms instead of 19th. (and with a wild variety of coats ). Is it because the most remembered images of Early US Army was one of Revolutionary War and not 1812 nor Wayne's Legion?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, no, but I’m sure it’s possible to come up with more than 26 unique palettes. Like, take ROYGBIV, then account for distinct variations for all those colors (burgundy/pink/hot rod red, etc, instead of just “red”) then multiply what number by itself to account for the secondary colors and presto.

Even if you have 4 leaders with a primary color of “red,” one could be Red+Orange, another could be Red+Teal, another could be Pink+Cream, another could be Burgundy+Lime.

From having spent far, far too many hours hunched over little metal miniature 18th century figures painting them, I can tell you what combinations make distinctive and even attractive combinations, because they were all used by one unit or many in Europe: For a primary color of Red, for instance
Red - Dark Blue
Red - Light Blue
Red - Dark Brown
Red - Light Green
Red - Yellow
Red - Black - BUT black and white seem to be reseerved for Minor Powers in Civ VII, so it's probably a no-go in the game.

Other primary (uniform) colors were:
Dark Blue, Light Blue, Gray, White (BUT see above, probably only for Minors) and medium Green

Contrasting ('distinctives') colors most used were:
Dark Blue, Light Blue, Red, Yellow, Brown, Light Green, Dark Green

Less often used, because the colors were so 'fugitive':
Orange, Lavender, Pink, and the orangish-brown color called by the French 'Feuille Morte' (Dead Leaf), which they used on uniforms and flags when they ran out of combinations of primary colors.

Even without subtler distinctions of shading like mauve, maroon, magenta and such, that still gives us enough combinations to distinguish at least the Civs/Leaders on release.

 

[AriochIV]

Civ6 had a reasonably effective two-tone teamcolor scheme, but in what I've seen of Civ7, although there are hints of a secondary color in a few cases, for the most part the teamcolor is dominated by a single color. In a game in which the lighting changes dramatically depending on whether there's a cloud passing overhead and battle kicks up dust and smoke to make even seeing the units difficult, subtle changes in color are not very noticeable. In the Exploration livestream I was having a tough time telling the Isabella and Confucius' units apart because their yellow/orange teamcolors were too similar.

And as for hot pink is a suitable teamcolor for historical military units, well... I'm not quite sure what to say about that.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Civ6 had a reasonably effective two-tone teamcolor scheme, but in what I've seen of Civ7, although there are hints of a secondary color in a few cases, for the most part the teamcolor is dominated by a single color. In a game in which the lighting changes dramatically depending on whether there's a cloud passing overhead and battle kicks up dust and smoke to make even seeing the units difficult, subtle changes in color are not very noticeable. In the Exploration livestream I was having a tough time telling the Isabella and Confucius' units apart because their yellow/orange teamcolors were too similar.

And that someone thinks hot pink is a suitable teamcolor for historical military units, well... I'm not quite sure what to think about that.

'Hot pink' or other bright reflective colors were never an option, but rose pink seems to have been considered quite acceptable - at least, a couple hundred years ago.

The requirement for contrasting, easily-distinguished color combinations is why I posted the combinations used by dozens of military units IRL between 1700 and 1815 - they were all designed to be easily distinguishable in the clouds of black powder smoke, dust, noise and confusion of an 18th century field battle. They should work equally well on a computer screen provided the computer is not also belching black smoke . . .

 

[sTAPler27]

View attachment 712577
Here are those gun elephants. They are in the Siamese civ.

Hope they get bonuses for having ivory, same think if we see mounted camel units

 

[sTAPler27]

If there’s one aspect of the game I hope they really spend time tweaking to get better and better, it’s map scripts.

Maybe you’re right that the constraints of the Exploration Age present a challenge.

However, I also think this presents a great opportunity for flexibility and creativity in map gen
(how could would it be if we could select totally separate map scripts for Starting Lands and Distant Lands?!)

I say they just drop them, it would be cool for there to be the random chance to find a hidden safe route to the other continent

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

From having spent far, far too many hours hunched over little metal miniature 18th century figures painting them, I can tell you what combinations make distinctive and even attractive combinations, because they were all used by one unit or many in Europe: For a primary color of Red, for instance
Red - Dark Blue
Red - Light Blue
Red - Dark Brown
Red - Light Green
Red - Yellow
Red - Black - BUT black and white seem to be reseerved for Minor Powers in Civ VII, so it's probably a no-go in the game.

Other primary (uniform) colors were:
Dark Blue, Light Blue, Gray, White (BUT see above, probably only for Minors) and medium Green

Contrasting ('distinctives') colors most used were:
Dark Blue, Light Blue, Red, Yellow, Brown, Light Green, Dark Green

Less often used, because the colors were so 'fugitive':
Orange, Lavender, Pink, and the orangish-brown color called by the French 'Feuille Morte' (Dead Leaf), which they used on uniforms and flags when they ran out of combinations of primary colors.

Even without subtler distinctions of shading like mauve, maroon, magenta and such, that still gives us enough combinations to distinguish at least the Civs/Leaders on release.

And Purple is quite a forbidden entirely. given that the only known purple dye was Tyrean Purple. the most expensive dye that claims the lives of many thousands of Murex Snails per each production batch.

Primary color (Base color, coat color) is always needed to be cheap. Many countries with Red uniforms (such as England, -> Britain) chose this color because its dye was cheap. The other is blue. (indigo blue).
And thus this is why purple, pink, orange, NEVER were coat colors. Yellow is rare but this... I THINK due to the use of locally available dyes. one might even be mineral based. and not elsewhere.
but it is not really a bright yellow, rather it looks like a raw cowhide like buffcoats of 17th Century.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

'Hot pink' or other bright reflective colors were never an option, but rose pink seems to have been considered quite acceptable - at least, a couple hundred years ago.

The requirement for contrasting, easily-distinguished color combinations is why I posted the combinations used by dozens of military units IRL between 1700 and 1815 - they were all designed to be easily distinguishable in the clouds of black powder smoke, dust, noise and confusion of an 18th century field battle. They should work equally well on a computer screen provided the computer is not also belching black smoke . . .

And Secondary color (trim) is more or less associated to either National. or a regiment, city, or specific monarch (in case of elite guards).

 

[j51]

It could save the designers and devs a little trouble if both personas of two persona leaders shared the same color.

 

[Krikkit1]

It could save the designers and devs a little trouble if both personas of two persona leaders shared the same color.

That’s assuming the two different personas won’t be in the same game…. which actually sounds like an interesting game
Xerxes, Asoka, Napoleon all with both their personalities. battling…
I can see where that might cause UI issues….unless they do have very different color schemes.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That’s assuming the two different personas won’t be in the same game…. which actually sounds like an interesting game
Xerxes, Asoka, Napoleon all with both their personalities. battling…
I can see where that might cause UI issues….unless they do have very different color schemes.

I'm pretty sure the "no duplicate leaders" option in Civ 6 also included personas, so I wouldn't be surprised to see in in Civ 7. But I did find it weird last game when both personas primary colors were different by default.

 

[Haig]

Couple small questions if anyone has an idea:

1) modern age has a WW2 -style infantry unit. What other infantry are in that era?

2) are there anti -air units?

3) can you build scouts after the first age?

 

[AriochIV]

Couple small questions if anyone has an idea:

1) modern age has a WW2 -style infantry unit. What other infantry are in that era?

2) are there anti -air units?

3) can you build scouts after the first age?

There are three tiers of infantry in the Modern Age: Line Infantry, Rifle Infantry, and the WW2-style one (name unknown) at tier 3. The Line Infantry looks like Revolutionary War or Napoleonic infantry, and Rifle Infantry presumably looks like WW1-era.

The only anti-air units that can be seen in the tech tree are Fighters.

Yes, Scouts are still available after the first age. There are even some later civilizations that have unique Scout units (such as the Inca Chasqui).

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

There are three tiers of infantry in the Modern Age: Line Infantry, Rifle Infantry, and the WW2-style one (name unknown) at tier 3. The Line Infantry looks like Revolutionary War or Napoleonic infantry, and Rifle Infantry presumably looks like WW1-era.

The only anti-air units that can be seen in the tech tree are Fighters.

Yes, Scouts are still available after the first age. There are even some later civilizations that have unique Scout units (such as the Inca Chasqui).

Couple of observaions:

The 1st Tier infantry are mostly in tricorn hats with the coat-tails pinned back to show the contrasting linings, which are both mid-18th century uniform features. But one bit from a video shows similar troops (and some of the artillery crewmen) wearing Napoleonic-style Shakoes. I suspect this means Civ VII is mixing variations of uniform from the same period into a single unit, as they did in Civ VI, since there is no geographical distinction between shako and tricorn - they were both in general use throughout Europe and North America.

Making 2nd Tier infantry the WWI-era troops with bolt-action smokeless powder rifles means there is no unit representing the black-powder rifle-armed troops of the 19th century - no scenarios of the American Civil War, Crimean War, Wars of German Unification using regular units in Civ VII.

The WWII-era Tier 3 infantry show at least three different headgear variants. These probably represent 'regional' geographic variations rather than Uniques, but we don't really know yet.

There are two different Fighter aircraft shown: a radial-engined type suspiciously similar to the Japanese A6M "Zero", and an in-line engined type that is almost Generic: from the quick glimpse it resembles almost every aircraft of that type produced in Europe or North America early in the war, from the German Bf-109 to fthe American P-40 to the Soviet Yak-1 or LaGG-3. We need a better look at it . . .

 

[AriochIV]

Couple of observaions:

The 1st Tier infantry are mostly in tricorn hats with the coat-tails pinned back to show the contrasting linings, which are both mid-18th century uniform features. But one bit from a video shows similar troops (and some of the artillery crewmen) wearing Napoleonic-style Shakoes. I suspect this means Civ VII is mixing variations of uniform from the same period into a single unit, as they did in Civ VI, since there is no geographical distinction between shako and tricorn - they were both in general use throughout Europe and North America.

Making 2nd Tier infantry the WWI-era troops with bolt-action smokeless powder rifles means there is no unit representing the black-powder rifle-armed troops of the 19th century - no scenarios of the American Civil War, Crimean War, Wars of German Unification using regular units in Civ VII.

The WWII-era Tier 3 infantry show at least three different headgear variants. These probably represent 'regional' geographic variations rather than Uniques, but we don't really know yet.

There are two different Fighter aircraft shown: a radial-engined type suspiciously similar to the Japanese A6M "Zero", and an in-line engined type that is almost Generic: from the quick glimpse it resembles almost every aircraft of that type produced in Europe or North America early in the war, from the German Bf-109 to fthe American P-40 to the Soviet Yak-1 or LaGG-3. We need a better look at it . . .

The Napoleonic French infantry in that shot might actually be an Imperial Guard unique unit, but even if they are Line Infantry, mixing units of slightly different vintages would be nothing new for Firaxis... the Redcoat unit in Civ6 mixed tricornes and shakoes as variant models within the same unit. And in Civ7 the Shawnee have Knights that are absolutely not anything resembling a knight, and for the Bugandan infantry some of the models are armed with spears.

It's possible that they'll use nineteenth century riflemen as the tier 2 Rifle Infantry, but since the other tier 2 units are of WWI vintage I think that's unlikely. We'll have to wait and see.

The later Modern infantry that we've seen are not necessarily all tier 3... the distinctive British and French helmets spanned both wars, so it's hard to say for sure which examples we've seen are tier 3 or actually still tier 2 Rifle Infantry.

The two fighters we've seen are clearly based on the Zero and Mustang. Considering that we've seen an obscure German heavy bomber, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a German fighter as well. There are at least 3 different Tank variants, so it shouldn't surprise us to see at least 3 variants for the aircraft.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Couple of observaions:

The 1st Tier infantry are mostly in tricorn hats with the coat-tails pinned back to show the contrasting linings, which are both mid-18th century uniform features. But one bit from a video shows similar troops (and some of the artillery crewmen) wearing Napoleonic-style Shakoes. I suspect this means Civ VII is mixing variations of uniform from the same period into a single unit, as they did in Civ VI, since there is no geographical distinction between shako and tricorn - they were both in general use throughout Europe and North America.

Making 2nd Tier infantry the WWI-era troops with bolt-action smokeless powder rifles means there is no unit representing the black-powder rifle-armed troops of the 19th century - no scenarios of the American Civil War, Crimean War, Wars of German Unification using regular units in Civ VII.

The WWII-era Tier 3 infantry show at least three different headgear variants. These probably represent 'regional' geographic variations rather than Uniques, but we don't really know yet.

There are two different Fighter aircraft shown: a radial-engined type suspiciously similar to the Japanese A6M "Zero", and an in-line engined type that is almost Generic: from the quick glimpse it resembles almost every aircraft of that type produced in Europe or North America early in the war, from the German Bf-109 to fthe American P-40 to the Soviet Yak-1 or LaGG-3. We need a better look at it . . .

1. Tier1 (Since there are early units that needs researched VERY EARLY to activate. i'd call it Tier0) units wore 18th Century uniforms. So not to be mismatched as seen in Civ6 Redcoats. frock coats are now standing collars rather than folded ones. While most nations got uniform that's truly UNIFORMED. (With base color and trim color), US Army however, still follows the Old Tinting rules.
My speculation is that there's to painting layers.
2. And no Mid19th Century units. but there's uniforms, worn by anyone but Europeans and Americans for Tier 0 units. Remember Siamese UU? that's exactly Mid19th Century Uniform, equivalent to King Mongkut's era (where modernization actually begun. though Siamese did use similiar European style tactics like 18th Century by the Kaungbaung War (Fall of Ayutthaya) which flintlock firearms saw use in large numbers. so many battles were fought primarily with fusillades just like in Europe.). The uniforms shown there was much later.
My speculation is that there MIGHT Be Blackpowder Rifled units in the expansions. though if Technical Upgrades are pursued, these are not neccessary.
But giving the name 'Cuirassiers' as generic T0 cavalry choice means there MIGHT be Blackpowder Rifled cavalry.. And these were also uniforms of Early WW1 soldiers before modern warfare made these obsolete.
Should there be any?
If Riflemen and mounted equivalents ever return. this should be a design of their weapons.

I don't even believe bolt action can be combined with serpentine hammer like this.
3. And while there's no silly 'Regiment of Machineguns' anymore, there's none represented in the battlefleld as a standard element to infantrymen. while IRL they are permanent addons to Infantry platoons. and even CAVALRY (since they were bogged down and had to fight as any infantrymen until the final months of the war. these cavalry were retained by many well into WW2, and even into 1943!
And icon chosen for Tier2 Infantry is a mafia tommygun. by then these soldiers weren't issued with these. the more correct emblem should be steel helmets just like in Civ6.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

the Bugandan infantry some of the models are armed with spears.

The two fighters we've seen are clearly based on the Zero and Mustang. Considering that we've seen an obscure German heavy bomber, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a German fighter as well. There are at least 3 different Tank variants, so it shouldn't surprise us to see at least 3 variants for the aircraft.

Given that the only shot I've seen of the in-line engined fighter was from the top down so that only the general fuselage configuration and wing shape are visible, it could be the P-51, P-40 or almost any in-line engined fighter except the Spitfire, whose eliptical wings were very distinctive - and besides, having the Spitfire in the game in any form without a Modern Age Britain would be heaping insult on top of British Isles Injury.

IF they are going with regional variations as they appear to, then an A6M and P-51 would be the 'European/Western' and East Asian versions. There really aren't any good candidates for South American, south Asian or African aircraft of the period, but the P-51 was given/sold to many countries in those regions after WWII, and given the example of the medium tanks (US, USSR and German) they could throw in a German Bf-109 or Fw-190 for the third fighter, or one of the Soviet fighters - I notice that the only Dive Bomber we've seen seems to be based on the US Dauntless rather than the (in)famous Soviet IL-2 Shturmovik or German Ju-87 Stuka, so there's room for a Soviet aircraft which would sort of represent central Asia.

As for spears in modern units, my father was attached to one of the Ethiopian battalions in the Korean War, and pointed out once that the Ethiopian version of the Combat Infantryman's Badge was a silver-lined blue ribbon with a silver spear on it - indicating that the individual had defended his country during the Italian invasion of the 1930s armed only with a spear.

And as I remarked, they are doubtless playing a little 'fast and loose' with uniform details since each Tier represents 50 - 100 or more years of uniforms in the Modern and Exploration Ages, so that there is a lot of room for variations within each Tier of units - the same kind of thing they did within the even smaller units in Civ VI, which frequently had 4 figures, each in a different version of the unit's 'uniform'!

 

[AriochIV]

Given that the only shot I've seen of the in-line engined fighter was from the top down so that only the general fuselage configuration and wing shape are visible, it could be the P-51, P-40 or almost any in-line engined fighter except the Spitfire, whose eliptical wings were very distinctive - and besides, having the Spitfire in the game in any form without a Modern Age Britain would be heaping insult on top of British Isles Injury.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

And as I remarked, they are doubtless playing a little 'fast and loose' with uniform details since each Tier represents 50 - 100 or more years of uniforms in the Modern and Exploration Ages, so that there is a lot of room for variations within each Tier of units - the same kind of thing they did within the even smaller units in Civ VI, which frequently had 4 figures, each in a different version of the unit's 'uniform'!

At least it could once again mismatched.
What's an explaination why Tier0 Americans wear a very wild varieties of coat colors? didn't US Army uniforms has any facings? and note that US Army shown here always wear rather dated uniforms compared to French and Continental Europeans. While French has early Napoleonic uniforms, and possibly Germans may get shakoes. Americans ALWAYS wear tricornes.
maybe is it because of Early US Army compositions that there are more State Units, Militias and Volunteers who provided uniforms for themselves and this contributed to the 'lack of' of uniformity? and this also reflects that they were very much more fieldsmen than European counterparts that American tricornes can unfold cockings whenever a wearer needed? (and 'hats' are more favorite headdress than 'caps' and 'shakoes'?)

Common Threads: Army

Army uniforms have changed considerably since 1775, but they share a common thread: keeping soldiers safe, on the move and on mission. Take an interactive look at how warfighters' clothes and gear have evolved to meet the times.

www.defense.gov

https://www.deviantart.com/villemogustus/art/The-Confederate-States-Army-1095226077

 

[Krikkit1]

At least it could once again mismatched.
What's an explaination why Tier0 Americans wear a very wild varieties of coat colors? didn't US Army uniforms has any facings? and note that US Army shown here always wear rather dated uniforms compared to French and Continental Europeans. While French has early Napoleonic uniforms, and possibly Germans may get shakoes. Americans ALWAYS wear tricornes.
maybe is it because of Early US Army compositions that there are more State Units, Militias and Volunteers who provided uniforms for themselves and this contributed to the 'lack of' of uniformity? and this also reflects that they were very much more fieldsmen than European counterparts that American tricornes can unfold cockings whenever a wearer needed? (and 'hats' are more favorite headdress than 'caps' and 'shakoes'?)

Common Threads: Army

Army uniforms have changed considerably since 1775, but they share a common thread: keeping soldiers safe, on the move and on mission. Take an interactive look at how warfighters' clothes and gear have evolved to meet the times.

www.defense.gov

https://www.deviantart.com/villemogustus/art/The-Confederate-States-Army-1095226077

That last point is probably the main reason (militia, state forces, volunteers) especially in the start of the age 1750