SMAN's The Ancient World at War (AWAW)

[sman1975]

Great suggestions!

I actually started a Hundred Years' War mod a long time ago.

Steam Workshop::Guerre de Cent Ans: A Hundred Years of War

steamcommunity.com

I think it looks pretty good, but gameplay is a bit erratic on it, as the game engine tries to play the map like it's a "normal" Civ5 game, and not a campaign with specific objectives. So the AI units move all over the place and don't behave in a way you'd want to play against.

When I finish the new "scenario management engine (SME)" I'll add this mod to it. It should help "steer" AI units in a way that makes more sense.

I had planned to reuse the map for 3 separate phases of the war:
1. The End of Homage (1337-1360) - Edward III/Black Prince vs. Philip VI/John II
2. French Ascendancy (1369-1389) - Edward III/John of Gaunt/Earl of Buckingham vs. Charles V/VI
3. The Lancastrian War (1415-1453) - Henry V vs. Charles VI/VII

Since the map and units are already completed for this mod, perhaps it should be the one I start testing the engine with?

As for the other 2 suggestions: who should be the antagonists? Is the simple "Greeks vs. Troy" and "Byzantium vs. Ottomans" approach enough? Or should there be some other playable/nonplayable civs? I really do believe the scenario is more fun if you can play more than the "big 2."

Finally - at least at first, I want scenarios to focus on "campaigns/wars" and not battles. It's easier for the SME to get AI behavior to mimic "intelligence" for campaigns than battles. You have to use a lot of commands in LUA to "order" a unit to move to a specific X/Y coordinate, but as soon as that order is given to the unit, other AI activities can quickly override the order and the unit will go in a completely different direction. This means often I'm making suggestions to the unit rather than an order.

On a large-scale campaign map, it's easier to control these unresponsive behaviors in a way that's harder for a human player to notice. On a small-scale battlefield, where there's nothing but units, it's harder to hide.

So, I can set up a detailed map, with beautiful units in line and I can issue them all orders to meet in the middle. About half the time, the units will. At other times random units go off on some odd "adventure" exploring the map.

I've had some decent luck getting battlefield scenarios to play almost like you'd expect, and we'll definitely have a few battlefields scenarios (how can you have an ancient war mod an NOT have Marathon????). But I want to make sure the SME is fairly mature and working well before I add the extra steps to get it to engage in hyper-managed battlefield-level of granularity.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

Great suggestions!

I actually started a Hundred Years' War mod a long time ago.

Steam Workshop::Guerre de Cent Ans: A Hundred Years of War

steamcommunity.com

I think it looks pretty good, but gameplay is a bit erratic on it, as the game engine tries to play the map like it's a "normal" Civ5 game, and not a campaign with specific objectives. So the AI units move all over the place and don't behave in a way you'd want to play against.

When I finish the new "scenario management engine (SME)" I'll add this mod to it. It should help "steer" AI units in a way that makes more sense.

I had planned to reuse the map for 3 separate phases of the war:
1. The End of Homage (1337-1360) - Edward III/Black Prince vs. Philip VI/John II
2. French Ascendancy (1369-1389) - Edward III/John of Gaunt/Earl of Buckingham vs. Charles V/VI
3. The Lancastrian War (1415-1453) - Henry V vs. Charles VI/VII

Since the map and units are already completed for this mod, perhaps it should be the one I start testing the engine with?

As for the other 2 suggestions: who should be the antagonists? Is the simple "Greeks vs. Troy" and "Byzantium vs. Ottomans" approach enough? Or should there be some other playable/nonplayable civs? I really do believe the scenario is more fun if you can play more than the "big 2."

Finally - at least at first, I want scenarios to focus on "campaigns/wars" and not battles. It's easier for the SME to get AI behavior to mimic "intelligence" for campaigns than battles. You have to use a lot of commands in LUA to "order" a unit to move to a specific X/Y coordinate, but as soon as that order is given to the unit, other AI activities can quickly override the order and the unit will go in a completely different direction. This means often I'm making suggestions to the unit rather than an order.

On a large-scale campaign map, it's easier to control these unresponsive behaviors in a way that's harder for a human player to notice. On a small-scale battlefield, where there's nothing but units, it's harder to hide.

So, I can set up a detailed map, with beautiful units in line and I can issue them all orders to meet in the middle. About half the time, the units will. At other times random units go off on some odd "adventure" exploring the map.

I've had some decent luck getting battlefield scenarios to play almost like you'd expect, and we'll definitely have a few battlefields scenarios (how can you have an ancient war mod an NOT have Marathon????). But I want to make sure the SME is fairly mature and working well before I add the extra steps to get it to engage in hyper-managed battlefield-level of granularity.

Hello S-Man,

Thank you for your answer. You have plenty of ideas !

I'm agree with you about the Hundred Years War, great job. About Fall of Constantinople and Trojan War, i need time to search all the protagonists, because play more than two civilizations is very important.

I'm thinking on a scenario about Alexandre the Great.

Are you sure you want to keep all (3) punic wars ? May be the second (218 - 201 BC) Punic War is enough..

Today, i'm working on the second Punic War for AWAW, for example :

Campaigns :

1) Campaign of Spain, start of the Second Punic War
2) Campaign of Italy and Sicilia
3) Campaign of Iberia
4) Campaign of Africa

Custom civs and leaders :

- Scipio africanus : already created on steam
- Massinissa : already created on steam
- Hannibal : already cretaed on steam
- Philip V : King of Macédonia
- Syphax : King of Masaesyli
- Antiochus III : King of the Seleucid Empire
- Sauromaces : King of Iberia
- Gaius Terentius Varro : Roman politician and General.

 

[sman1975]

Second Punic War is the one everyone wants to play, so it's in. I like the idea of "alternate history" (probably everyone else who plays Civ5 too!) and to me this makes the 1st Punic War very interesting - as almost nothing had been established far from their respective starting cities, and the med was wide open, so to speak. The third? Forget it. It was over before it started. But if it's not to much work (and the SME is really working) I may throw it in just for completeness.

I've already done a lot of work on the Punic Wars scenario - check here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-punic-wars.663920/

Basic map looked like this:

This map is for the "race for the med" type of scenario. For the actual Punic Wars scenarios, I'd likely find a different map that goes from Cyrene to the west - with only the civs/minors depicted included. Getting the map right isn't as easy as you'd think.

You want the largest possible map the game will allow. The WorldBuilder program for vanilla let you create very large maps. Unfortunately, by the time BNW was released, they updated WB so the largest map you could create was half the size. They did this because they'd added so much stuff to the game it was dying early on the big maps.

Getting the maps right really is no big deal, but an early issue that usually takes way to much time to get right.

Appreciate the suggestions on custom civs. Generally, I harvest the artwork from those (in keeping with the terms of the Moddiquette) and redesign the traits, uu's etc. Mostly to keep the civs balanced inside the scenario. Some modders pick a civ to design because they're very interested in that civ. That's not a problem, but when they become very interested in the success of those civs, they get very generous with what they put into it.

Am still a bit of time away before I get to involved with AWAW scenarios. Just don't have enough time. Am wrapping up an expansion of WAW, and after that, I plan on finishing the AWAW "Black Swan" companion mod - which adds random events to game play (storms, plagues, rebellions, etc.). After that? I may do a very quick/light version of AWAW Unique Units, simply because I think it might support the work on AWAW scenarios.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

S-Man,

Great job on the Punic War scénario, You have done a lot of work, very impressive.

The "Black Swan" companion mod is very interesting and i hope you can finish it soon.

Your AWAW mod is fantastic and I have several ideas for scenarios. Of course, you need time so tell me how i can help you.. Maybe I can work on looking for custom leaders for future scenarios and also find pictures of them ?

 

[sman1975]

It always helps me a lot! Takes me forever to gather artwork, even longer if I have to generate it myself. So, if you find some art online for Civ A, but think it could also work for a new Civ B, keep note of that as well. Goal is to put the best together to make the end product as appealing as possible.

Most important thing is to envision what the scenario looks like, then produce notes of something that looks like this:

1. Scenario (rough map of upper NW and lower SE corners) - if you can find an existing map on Steam, Civfanatics it is great! Saves many days of tedious work. Even a close one is much better than scratch. FWIW, it's easier to shrink a map than to grow it. This post has some background info on map issues (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-punic-wars.663920/#post-15943126)

2. Playable Civs (Leader info, trait suggestions, UUs, etc. - if the artwork is from another mod, keep the link for that mod. Recycling the artwork is easy)

3. City States (Leaders, can be used here too, City State type, UUs, etc.)

4. Unit recommendations (e.g. In the Marathon scenario, Greece/Athens will have 20 Phalanx, 10 archers, 4 companion cav; Persia will have...) doesn't have to be precise, and much will depend on the specific map

5. Time frame (start/stop years, turn increments, e.g. 1 month per turn, 1 week, 6 months, etc.)

6. Victory conditions (death match [take the capital], lose # cities, lose # units, other objectives?

Of course, I'm not expecting anyone to formulate all of this alone. It's a collaborative effort.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

It always helps me a lot! Takes me forever to gather artwork, even longer if I have to generate it myself. So, if you find some art online for Civ A, but think it could also work for a new Civ B, keep note of that as well. Goal is to put the best together to make the end product as appealing as possible.

Most important thing is to envision what the scenario looks like, then produce notes of something that looks like this:

1. Scenario (rough map of upper NW and lower SE corners) - if you can find an existing map on Steam, Civfanatics it is great! Saves many days of tedious work. Even a close one is much better than scratch. FWIW, it's easier to shrink a map than to grow it. This post has some background info on map issues (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-punic-wars.663920/#post-15943126)

2. Playable Civs (Leader info, trait suggestions, UUs, etc. - if the artwork is from another mod, keep the link for that mod. Recycling the artwork is easy)

3. City States (Leaders, can be used here too, City State type, UUs, etc.)

4. Unit recommendations (e.g. In the Marathon scenario, Greece/Athens will have 20 Phalanx, 10 archers, 4 companion cav; Persia will have...) doesn't have to be precise, and much will depend on the specific map

5. Time frame (start/stop years, turn increments, e.g. 1 month per turn, 1 week, 6 months, etc.)

6. Victory conditions (death match [take the capital], lose # cities, lose # units, other objectives?

Of course, I'm not expecting anyone to formulate all of this alone. It's a collaborative effort.

S-Man,

Alright, I'll start my research about finding maps, custom leader info, city states type, time frame, pictures...
I have time to help you no problem, but I just need to know what scenarios I should look for?

- Punic War ? I don't think so, you have already done a great job.

- The persian invasions of greece ? Darius and Xerxes too ?

- Caesar in Gaul ? Not very hard to find informations on this campaign for me.

- The conquest of Germania ? When ? Because there are been many conflicts between the Germanic tribes and the Roman Empire (Augustus ? Marcus Aurelius ?)

- The conquest of the holy lands ? First crusade ?

- The crusades ? more precisely what period?

Of course, with you amazing AWAW mod, you can do several other scenarios : Trojan war (I have a lot of information about this war), The wars of Alexander the Great, Rise of the empires Ottoman and the fall of Constantinople, Hundred years' war, The Viking Age, the terror of the Mongol invasions...

 

[sman1975]

Punic War map is ill-scoped. I plan on using it for a different scenario (Race for the Med, or something like that). For the Punic War Scenario(s) I want one that the eastern boundary is about Cyrene in N. Africa, and only goes up to near the Alps up north. The problem with using the existing map on a game that focuses only on Rome v Carthage would mean over 2/3 of the tiles on the map would never be used. To much overhead for no payback. The map I'm looking for will have as many tiles between the 2 cities as possible.

Persian invasions were 2 different scenarios - focusing on both of those antagonists.

Caesar v Gaul: my interest in that was to have about 2-5 playable Gaulish tribes, with a heavy emphasis on alliances. It would probably only be fun for masochists (playing Gaul) or narcissists (playing Caesar), but still it could be fun to see how long/short you could make the game.

Germania was exactly those 2. I didn't feel very strongly about this one, because I wasn't too sure how I was going to set up the Germanic tribes. It would be similar to Caesar v Gual, but the map would be "poorer" (fewer resources, smaller towns), and would have an active "event" system to simulate constant threats to Roman supply lines. Supply was going to play a large part, in a way that was very similar to my old mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=974998487

The Crusades were going to be separate from Conq. of Holy land. Crusades was either going to be on a larger map (showing bits of France, going all the way to say Baghdad) or it was going to be on a very small focus consisting of modern day Lebanon, Israel, and bits of Egypt. Hadn't quite made up my mind on that. The timeframe and players was going to be tightly controlled as well. First Crusade for sure, hadn't decided on what others.

The Conq. of Holy Land was going to be like the earlier (Race for the Med). Map would be something like Rome in the West to about Damascus in the east. All of Turkey, some of Egypt. I was pretty sure the players would be about the same as First Crusade, but the scope of the mod, and victory conditions would be different. Ultimately this scenario may be dropped, if the First Crusade does the job just as well.

As for the new scenarios - Love the Trojan War and conquests of Alexander. Hundred Years War is definitely on my radar. Constantinople is pretty interesting to me (in the same way that Caesar v Gaul). It might be the same scenario, just in a different setting.

Viking Age could be interesting if the SME works like I hope it will. Mongol invasions would be great, but the scope of that would be massive. May not be able to do it justice (for example, Mongols have 5 cities, but most European/S. Asian civs have 1-2, simply because the map is so large, and almost all of it will be unused).

As you can see, it's still early in the process, and much of this isn't much more than a notion. Interactions like these really help translate idle thoughts into something programmable!

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

Thank you for your details. I agree with you, interactions like this help to understand what you need and where you want to go.

I played on world at war, it's very good but AWAW is even better and allows you to create a lot more interesting scenarios through the ages. I saw on steam your megapack with the 19 custom civs (WWII) but honestly with all the exciting scenarios for AWAW we are talking about at least 70 custom civs and leaders for your scenarios and a megapack standalone.

I hope people can help you to create them. Huge but exciting work.

As soon as you can tell me which selection of scenarios you are chosen I will start looking very seriously and give you feedback on my work. Honestly all the scenarios we discussed are interesting and promise hours of play.

 

[sman1975]

I think the first scenario will be a rerun of the 100 year war mod. It's just too mature, so I don't have to worry about maps, customs civs, UUs, traits, etc. i can start working on the SME immediately. I see 3 basic scenarios using the same components, so it'll be a good test for the engine.

Once the first version is ready to run, you'll be a great help to me by actually running test games against it - to see if it improves AI performance. The better we get it early on, the easier it'll be to use the same engine to run other AWAW scenarios.

I've written 4 or so of these engines and the problem is they each deviated from a "generic engine" into something too close to the specific scenario. My fault. But it means it's very hard to use the same engine on a different scenario. You get about 10% improved performance/immersive qualities but for the complete sacrifice of portability.

I'm going to try my level best to avoid that slippery slope with the first scenario. And since I've written it a few times already hopefully the 5th time will be charmed.

One thing to consider in the meantime - the naming of units. I hate to go to all the trouble to create a nice map, beautiful units, and decent artwork, only to have 20 units on the map, all called "swordsman."

For the 100 year war scenario, it's pretty easy. "Lord Percy" and "Lord Beaufort" are simple enough. But when we get into the ancient times this will become much harder.

So, keep in the back of your mind how we can find ways to personalize units to pull the player closer into the game. City names are a good start. "Swordsman (Athens)" is a lot better then "Swordsman" but hopefully there are other ways we can customize the experience with very little computer effort.

My WAW update is bogging down a bit, but I'm working hard to get it off my radar soon. My main interest in modding now is the SME and getting it right this time. Unfortunately, work before pleasure...

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

S-Man

Honestly, testing the 100 Years War scenario first is the best idea.
I am available to help you by playing and running test game and I would also like to test all standalone the 100 years war custom civs on random maps against very strong mods civs like Attila rework, Joan of arc, Timur or Alaric.
You must first finish the WAW update and then create The "Black Swan" companion. If you agree, I will start working on the Caesar in Gaul scenario and find all the information I can (city names, units, custom leaders...).

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

S-Man,

I started my research about the Caesar in Gaul scenario (Custom civs and leaders, City names and units names) :
CAESAR in Gaul : Gallic wars (58 – 50 BC)
Customs Civs and Leaders :

• Julius Caesar : already created in steam
• Vercingetorix : already created in steam
• Ambiorix : King of Eburones (57 – 54 BC)
• Viridorix : already created in steam
• Divico : leader of the Tigurini (58 BC)
• Diviciacus : druid of the Aedui tribe (63 – 44 BC)
• Ariovistus : leader of the Suebi ( 101 – 54 BC)
• Galba : king of the Suessiones (57 – 47 BC)
• Boduognatus : leader of the Belgic Nervii (57 BC)
• Sedullos : leader of the Lémovices (80 – 52 BC)
• Lucterius : Leader of the Cadurci (65 – 50 BC)
• Camulogene : Leader of the Aulerci (60 – 52 BC)
• Commius : king of the Belgic nation of the Atrebates (57 – 30 BC)
• Dumnorix : chieftain of the Aedui (57 – 54 BC)
• Cassivellaunus : British military leader of Catuvellauni (60 – 30 BC)

City names :



EBURONES : Atualuca, Achel, Beek.

TIGURINI : Aventicum, Esslingen, Tübingen.

AEDUI : Bibracte, Autun,Tournus, Lormes, Rouy, Donzy.

SUEBI : Ubiorum, Tiberiacum, Bonna, Marcomagus, Juliacum,Rigomagus,Castellum

SUESSIONES : Suessionum, Noviodunum, Barillet, Murus.

NERVI : Bagacum, Estrun, Binche, Waudre.

LEMOVICES : Acitodunum, Augustoritum, Argentate, Blatomagus, Carovicus, Tintignac, Durotincon, Briva Curretia,Cassinomagus.

CADURCI : Divona Cadurcorum, Uxellodunum, Murcens, Impernal, Figeac.

AULERCI : Cenomani, Vorey, Cuffy.

ATREBATES : Nemetacum, Samarobriva, Cumaracum, Rodium, Verbinum.

CATUVELLAUNI : Verulamium,


Units names :
Ambactes

Frondeurs

Sapeurs

Sonneurs de carnyx


II found several images for the Gallic chiefs but I don't know how I sent it to you..

 

[sman1975]

Maybe it's my old Celtic Blood, but one of the features of a few of the scenarios will be an outsized role for religion. In Caesar v Gaul, sure, but for certain in Rome v Britain.

My original thoughts would be to give Prophets (maybe missionaries) a special "Inspire" capability. It would expend the unit, but give their fighting units a temporary bonus combat promotion.

There might also be a "curse" capability, which would award a "cursed" promotion to all enemy units for a few turn, lowing their combat strengths.

Have also thought the Druids could serve as Great Generals as well, but instead of citadels, they'd cast their inspire/curse

Just to give the scenario a little more flavor.

And of course, to demonstrate how "good ideas" kill a reusable SME...

Great work - we'll definitely need these kind of specificity to build a good scenario. Be on the lookout for any map that might be useful as well.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

S-Man,

I also thought of druids (Diviciacus). The mystical and intriguing side of the druids is very interesting. In reality the Roman legionnaires were very anxious about the power of these druids and their haunted forests. Great idea !
I'll try to find some cards for your scenario.
If you have information to give me on research to do for the scenario on the hundred years war tell me (custom civs...)

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

S-MAN,

Maps/Scénarios AWAW

the viking Age (invasions) :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Traité de Verdun 843 ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Alexander the Great's conquests :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Alexander the Great's conquests ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Mediterranean Map Roman Empire :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop:TSL) Mare Nostrum (Mediterranean Map) ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Mediterranean Europe ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::The Mediterranean playable ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Greece and Anatolia, Trojan war ? :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Greece and Anatolia (v. 4) ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Medieval Europe :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Age of Conquest : Medieval Europe ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Crusader Kings (Medieval Europe 1147)[Discontinued] ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Mongols invasions :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Little Brute's Huge Europe ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Caesar in Gaul/Britain :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::North West Europe (Huge Map) ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com



Huge map :

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Roman Conquest 200 BCE ​

[/URL] steamcommunity.com

[/URL]

Steam Workshop::Europe 154 x 129 (South) Modified ​

 

[sman1975]

It's good to keep a running tally of these maps and links. When it comes time to actually work on the scenario, we'll grab all the available applicable maps, then make the call on which one best serves the need of the scenario.

Basically, think of what happened "during the war." Where most of the action occurred. For example, when looking at the Punic Wars I did a quick survey of where almost all the action took place and painted it on a screenshot of the map:

This should help prioritize the best map available. In this example, it's fairly safe to ignore the minor action in the Balkans, and perhaps far west Spain. So, we'd want the largest map we can find that can contain where action might reasonably be expected. In our case, we could probably get by with this:

Easily cutting the number of tiles in half, even more. The fewer the plots, the better the game engine can cope, and honestly fewer ways the AI can screwup. OTOH, you want as many tiles possible in the "hot" areas, to allow more maneuvers, flanking, etc. It's a tricky balance, but the first real challenge in deciding which map to use.

WorldBuilder is the SDK tool used to create/edit maps. I mentioned before that vanilla allowed huge maps (e.g. 150x150 tiles). But as the game evolved and the game engine had to manage much more content, it wasn't able to cope with these huge maps. So later versions of WB started to limit the size of maps it would allow. I'd have to look at the specific numbers, but let's just say something like 120x80. If the map is smaller than that, then we can edit it in WB. Can shrink it, expand it, add rows/columns of new tiles, resources, etc.

If the map is oversized, about all WB will let me do is change the content on the existing tiles (add/remove features, resources), and shrink the map.

Just a few things to consider when selecting the best map for any scenario. Rarely you'll find a "perfect" map, and the difficulty is selecting the "best" map, or at least a map you can edit to get it to that best state.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

SMAN,

Thank you for all these comments on the cards. I know you have to work on WAW for the moment but I would like to know if after the information I gave you on Caesar in Gaul I should look for what other scenarios?

 

[sman1975]

The work on Gaul is quite good. I could get most of the info I need to begin the work on a scenario with it.

The next big issue is "relative strengths." How economically and militarily related are the various civs on the map? It's often more art than science, but ultimately, you need to place so many cities for each side. They need to have certain population, buildings, etc.

Then how many units? What type? Location?

All of these need to be considered to complete the part of the map the player sees when he starts the scenario.

Many things can be randomized, but since we're trying to recreate what actually happened, hewing close to history is a huge goal.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

SMAN,

Ok, I understand.

So tell me, how many custom civs do you want to keep for this scenario ? Caesar, Vercingetorix and Vidigorix are always in STEAM but you will need to create all the others.
With these precisions I could start my research concerning the type of units, location of cities, population...

 

[sman1975]

Yep, usually the way it works. It's possible to use artwork from a different custom civ if the artwork is close. It's a lot easier to recycle than create from scratch.

At a minimum, I'd say that Caesar, Vercingetorix, Ambiorix, and Viridorix should be playable civs.

Could add 1-2 more, if the civs were influential to history enough.

The rest could be multi-city city states.

That might be enough to get started.

 

[SSCnapolicl2023]

Boduognatus and Ariovistus were important and powerful.
May be 6 playable civs is good and others for city states.
I think i can find artwork easily.
I will start tomorrow