Snow in the Philippines? Can it happen?

CavLancer

This aint fertilizer
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Messages
4,298
Location
Oregon or Philippines
You want hurricanes, earthquakes and snows :confused:
Well we just had a cold snap in the middle of summer in Sydney, so I guess you have chances of snowing due to the screwed up weather pattens and climate change
 
It snows in Hawaii. Do they have any really high peaks in the Philippines?
 
Friendly, I don't know if a few inches of snow is on par with typhoons and quakes, but whatever works for you. :)

Not really Tims. Up on Luzon there's Baguio which is fairly high and allows the growing of stunted conifers, but its never snowed there. Here's Vietnam, down to the floor in Hanoi, and that is almost as far south as we are. Another first time ever. Looking at the way it hurt the farmers took away my enthusiasm for the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wrA2oqOqFw
 
Heh. I was playing XCOM 2 and had a cut scene ostensible in the Indonesian / Philippine region. The cut scene portrayed a taiga. Of course XCOM 2 is set in 2035, so it may be prophetic.
 
I like extreme weather events like snow in unusual places. I do have to say that the guy in the video you linked is completely clueless about how the atmosphere and magnetosphere work - definitely don't take his word for anything. But strange weather events are always fun to read about.

To be picky, it appears the precipitation was actually graupel rather than true snow, which can be thought of as a cross between snow and hail. Graupel is snow that accumulates a layer of rime ice on the outside, in a process similar to how hail forms, and it falls faster than snow. That's how it managed to accumulate for a little while despite temperatures of about 3 C in Kuwait. It's still a form of wintry precipitation, though - it's one of the types of ice that can show up during a "wintry mix". The snowfall in Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, was actual snow.

My personal favorite strange cold wave is the Great Blizzard of 1899. The Gulf Coast from Matamoros, Mexico to Tampa received snow, with an ocean-effect blizzard across the northern half of the Florida Gulf Coast. Temperatures fell below 0 F across the Deep South from Austin, TX (-1 F) all the way to Tallahassee (-2 F, the only subzero temp ever recorded in Florida). The port of New Orleans froze over, and 3 inches of snow fell on Mardi Gras. Miami hit 29 F and Havana recorded 33 F (32 just outside the city), with frost that damaged crops throughout northern Cuba and south Florida. A similar Florida event happened in January 1977, with snow flurries occurring for the only time on record in Miami and the northern Bahamas.
 
BvBPL, I hate xcom. That game drove me to frustration! I'd get a good team together and then the aliens which mess with thoughts would come and my team would kill each other. Anyway its mostly jungle wherever humanity isn't.

Bootstoots, I want my kids to experience some snow but hopefully they'll make it to Oregon for that. The damage done to Vietnamese crops in that last video was impressive! Snow or whatever on banana trees! I guess such stuff is to be expected more and more in the coming decades, unless I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, but we'll see. I do admit the possibility that I might be wrong, which a lot of people can't seem to anymore. I hope they get a huge boost to their humility. Though a cooler world with the current high population would be bad so for that reason I hope I'm wrong. Climate science has gotten political and people feel hard emotions about others who disagree with them, and that's not science, so I think I'll keep such opinions to myself in the future. Lets just see what happens, shall we? :)

I hope they get fusion one of these decades so we can turn the deserts green.
 
It snowed here in Laos this year, enough to settle on the ground for a bit. Water buffalo and some people died of hypothermia.

It also rained heavily in December and January, which is extremely unusual.

Ya, though the media doesn't like to call it snow, it was actually snow, yes?
 
Bootstoots, I want my kids to experience some snow but hopefully they'll make it to Oregon for that. The damage done to Vietnamese crops in that last video was impressive! Snow or whatever on banana trees! I guess such stuff is to be expected more and more in the coming decades, unless I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, but we'll see. I do admit the possibility that I might be wrong, which a lot of people can't seem to anymore. I hope they get a huge boost to their humility. Though a cooler world with the current high population would be bad so for that reason I hope I'm wrong. Climate science has gotten political and people feel hard emotions about others who disagree with them, and that's not science, so I think I'll keep such opinions to myself in the future. Lets just see what happens, shall we? :)
I'm certainly not a fan of the politicization of climate science myself. But I think it is important to distinguish the scientific community from the people who use climate science in a political way, on both sides of the aisle. Climatologists as a whole are quite careful about the uncertainties inherent in climate science and express them pretty well.

I think that climate activists tend to make things sound more certain than they are, and while there are some things that are known very well, there's also whole lot we don't know to a high degree of precision. To give one particularly embarrassing example, the equilibrium climate sensitivity - the amount that the global temperature will rise if CO2 is doubled - is still only known to a likely range of 1.5-4.5 C, which hasn't improved since the first attempts to estimate it in the late 1970s. Lots of other things (e.g. what will happen to precipitation patterns) are in general even less certain, and the IPCC reports along with the rest of the climatological literature are quite explicit about all this. While it is virtually certain that temperatures will continue to rise long-term, the amount that they will rise and most of the effects are still poorly understood.
 
Well, I have a different opinion about the near future, and likely the recent past, but am glad to see that you are open minded about the state of the science. I do wish the IPCC would consider what the sun is up to in all this, but that is not in their interests perhaps. Instead its dire prediction after dire prediction, the anticipated dates of some of them are now past, yet those failures don't get much air time. There were 4 hurricanes on year that came into the East Coast of the US. These were blamed on global warming with dire predictions of more more more. Instead hurricanes are now very few. Fifty million climate refugees, polar bears the habitat of which they know nothing, endless freakin drama that is not science but hysteria, why? I hope that soon things make the hard turn to cold just so the can get their drama right, because cold is worse. Don't know how they are going to blame it on humanity but they will find a way. They shifted gears from global warming to climate change fairly flawlessly and are trying to bury the "pause" in the deep oceans, so one must give credit where its due. Still if the cold that I anticipate occurs, I'm sure it will somehow be our fault.

Anyway I better give it a rest. :)
 
Well, I have a different opinion about the near future, and likely the recent past, but am glad to see that you are open minded about the state of the science. I do wish the IPCC would consider what the sun is up to in all this, but that is not in their interests perhaps. Instead its dire prediction after dire prediction, the anticipated dates of some of them are now past, yet those failures don't get much air time. There were 4 hurricanes on year that came into the East Coast of the US. These were blamed on global warming with dire predictions of more more more. Instead hurricanes are now very few. Fifty million climate refugees, polar bears the habitat of which they know nothing, endless freakin drama that is not science but hysteria, why? I hope that soon things make the hard turn to cold just so the can get their drama right, because cold is worse. Don't know how they are going to blame it on humanity but they will find a way. They shifted gears from global warming to climate change fairly flawlessly and are trying to bury the "pause" in the deep oceans, so one must give credit where its due. Still if the cold that I anticipate occurs, I'm sure it will somehow be our fault.

Anyway I better give it a rest. :)

The IPCC report is not a hysterical document. It has low confidence in predictions about what will happen with regard to hurricanes and other storm systems, and in general it actually seems more likely that they'll become less frequent (but more severe when they do happen). Sea level rise by 2100 is predicted to be less than a meter even under high-emissions scenarios. It does state that shifting precipitation patterns causing droughts, more heat waves and fires, and sea level rise are likely to cause stress on human society and on ecosystems, but there's nothing apocalyptic about it at all. The most dire things you hear are generally from activists, not scientists, although there are a few like James Hanson who cross that line.

It actually has been considered that solar activity might be entering a minimum, and climatologists have looked at what would happen if solar output were to decline to the same levels it was at during the Maunder Minimum of 1645-1715, where sunspots virtually disappeared and the worst part of the Little Ice Age occurred. This paper simulates exactly this and finds that the effect would be a reduction in global temperatures of no more than 0.3 C, and most likely substantially less. This is approximately a tenth of what is expected to happen with a doubling of CO2. Other sources I found seem to agree as well.

There are other reasons to believe this. Here's a figure from the IPCC report, which I'll explain below:

Spoiler solar activity graph :
ktB0f79.png


What it's saying is that a bunch of reconstructions have been made based on data ranging from sunspots to radioactive isotopes produced by cosmic rays. All of the reconstructions have shown the total amount of solar radiation that reaches the sunlit side of the Earth (the solar constant or Total Solar Irradiance (TSI)) has varied by about 1.8 W/m^2 between the Maunder minimum and the largest recorded activity maximum around 1950.

There’s a wrinkle I’ll explain here. This ~1361 W/m^2 gets spread over the Earth's surface, including the dark half, and not as much reaches the poles as the equator; the effect is that the average over the whole surface of the Earth is ¼ of the amount at the equator on the sunlit side (which is what the TSI really is). Then 29% reflects back to space. So the amount of energy actually absorbed is 1361*0.71/4 = 242 W/m^2, and the variation since the Little Ice Age is 1.8*0.71/4 = 0.32 W/m^2. That’s from the modern maximum to the Maunder Minimum; at the moment we’re in between the two, so if we suddenly lost 0.32 W/m^2 we would be getting even less energy than during the Little Ice Age.

The amount of extra heat trapped by the amount of CO2 we have emitted so far is known fairly well; the IPCC estimates it as 1.68 W/m^2, with a range of 1.33 to 2.03. That’s not based on any projections; it’s true at the present time. As you can see, this dwarfs the 0.32 W/m^2 reduction we could expect if the sun suddenly shifted to a grand minimum of solar activity worse than in the Little Ice Age. Even if your prediction that we’re about to enter a severe solar minimum comes true, we’re still going to warm, just a little bit more slowly.
 
Well, I have a different opinion about the near future, and likely the recent past, but am glad to see that you are open minded about the state of the science. I do wish the IPCC would consider what the sun is up to in all this, but that is not in their interests perhaps. Instead its dire prediction after dire prediction, the anticipated dates of some of them are now past, yet those failures don't get much air time. There were 4 hurricanes on year that came into the East Coast of the US. These were blamed on global warming with dire predictions of more more more. Instead hurricanes are now very few. Fifty million climate refugees, polar bears the habitat of which they know nothing, endless freakin drama that is not science but hysteria, why? I hope that soon things make the hard turn to cold just so the can get their drama right, because cold is worse. Don't know how they are going to blame it on humanity but they will find a way. They shifted gears from global warming to climate change fairly flawlessly and are trying to bury the "pause" in the deep oceans, so one must give credit where its due. Still if the cold that I anticipate occurs, I'm sure it will somehow be our fault.

Anyway I better give it a rest. :)

Why are you certain they haven't?
Yeah, tracking solar cycles is a major part of climate science and certainly goes into global warming calculations.

Also, Cav's post strikes me as very much confusing climate with weather.
 
You want hurricanes, earthquakes and snows :confused:
Well we just had a cold snap in the middle of summer in Sydney, so I guess you have chances of snowing due to the screwed up weather pattens and climate change

I think most people would find that to be an interesting definition of 'cold'.
 
Thanks for what you guys have shared. Good luck with that .03C Boots, I'd be very surprised. I guess we will see what we will see. Meanwhile it snowed in Vietnam, and that's fairly close to us.

If I'm wrong and there is only a "less than a meter" worst case rise, well that will effect a lot of places, but this house should be okay. Likely have more spray coming over the wall, and if there's a storm surge at high tide we could have flooding, but hopefully not too bad.

Heard a lot of differing predictions for the end of the Holocene but it is imo important to remember that we are in an ice age and when the interglacial ends well then its cold, and the ocean recedes again as glaciers advance. Solar magnetism is taking a dive to the basement. If cycle 25 is as low as predicted...could it signal the end of the Holocene?
 
An ice age isn't a fixed time in which glaciers advance, on the contrary, things move back and forth all the time, both on larger scales and on smaller ones.

And no, we aren't about to enter one either. Ice ages don't happen against Milankovich cycles, they follow them. The current cycles are way to weak to lead to an ice age.

In addition to that, solar output does not cause ice ages, apart from the possibility of certain catastrophic events that have nothing to do with the sun cycles and are thus irrelevant to the discussion. Look at the Maunder minimum and the little ice age. Apart from not really being connected all that much, the decisive feature of the little ice age was cold winters, the summers were completely normal. Now, what does drive glaciation isn't a cold winter, winters in the area where the ice develops are always cold, even cooler temperatures don't make that much of a difference. What actually drives glaciation is a mild summer. An extremely cold winter with lots of new ice being formed, followed by a relatively warm summer, doesn't leave you with any more ice than usual. A mild summer however, means less ice is melting, meaning that there is more ice left when the next winter hits. This leads to an ever growing accumulation, supported by more ice reflection more sunlight as well. Seeing how even the Maunder Minimum didn't cause the summers to be particularly mild - as mentioned before, they were completely normal - an upcoming "low" cycle won't have the means to cause anything to happen.

In other words: if you want to see the next ice age, look out for mild/cool summers, not cold winters. Seeing how even the Maunder Minimum didn't cause these kind of summers, it is completely wrong to suspect that any other sort of "low" sun cycle could accomplish that. You are better off hoping for a whole line of huge vulcano-eruptions that dim the sunlight for years. That could actually cause a noticeable glaciation. But even then, if the Milankovhich cycles don't fit, it wouldn't lead you anywhere.
 
I was just reading about the freezing deaths of tens of thousands of cows in Mexico and Texas. It leads me to think that what Arwon says has always been the norm but the norm is about to become abnormal. Couple that with the "Coldest temps ever recorded" in the Northeast, right now, and hopefully skepticism will become the norm and an acceptance of the new reality, as I see it anyhow.

Wastl, in reality we are in an ice age known as the Pleistocene. Roughly speaking for the last half million years we've had (very approximately) a series of 90,000 year glaciation periods and 10,000 year interglacials. Civilization arose in the Holocene, we've never known anything else. Some interglacials are shorter, some longer. The Holocene is roughly 11,500 years old. None of this matches any known cycle, such as the Milankovich. So, if something is causing cycles and its not caused by the Earth's distance by the sun, or the shape of the continents, and its a repeating cycle, what causes it? The moon? No, it has to be the sun, something we don't understand yet. We don't know the cause but the effect is plain enough. The sun is the heater, turn it up and we get warmer, turn it down and we get colder. Well its getting turned down. Considering that we are 11,500 years into a cycle that roughly averages around 10,000 years, well maybe its another Maunder minimum, maybe not. The Maunder was caused by the sun btw, solar magnetism as evidenced by sunspots. Caused by the s u n. While the IPCC might be including such in their calculations, they wouldn't exist if "global warming" were not caused by humanity. If instead its cooling and CO2 is rising, well there goes that, a whole industry is doomed. So every time you see temps in New York or Oshkosh or snow and dead crops in Vietnam you see that industry saying, 'but look, its warm in Toledo', we're all going to drown', or some such crap. See: The tobacco industry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJBaBJawnSY

Anyway it gives me hope that the kids will play in the snow sooner rather than later, though I'm concerned for the crop.

Okay, now I'm in for some freakin politically motivated drama. :D A dose of political science please!
 
It's pretty unlikely that a redirected Arctic air flow is going to reach 6°N across thousands of km of ocean.
 
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