So I played a game of Civ4 for the first time in years...

I have my 33 yr old son playing AND now! :woohoo:

But I need to get him to update his version to the latest. He's made to Combustion in the tech tree and is fighting a 6 front war. He opted for Vassals and Barb Civs with Start as Minors Options.

Don't know if I can get him to register here at CFC or not. 1 step at a time I guess.

JosEPh :)
 
I have my 33 yr old son playing AND now! :woohoo:

But I need to get him to update his version to the latest. He's made to Combustion in the tech tree and is fighting a 6 front war. He opted for Vassals and Barb Civs with Start as Minors Options.

Don't know if I can get him to register here at CFC or not. 1 step at a time I guess.

JosEPh :)

So a future step will be multiplayer! :) I'm still working on it but by that time I hope MP will be fully enjoyable! ;)
 
Your son is 33? You're quite literally old enough to be my father.

And he's my 2nd child of 4. The younger brother 28 plays RoM from time to time. And Oldest daughter 37 plays RoM occassionally too. Youngest daughter 27 hasn't played Civ IV BtS that I recall.

I retired in 2012.

I also have several "sons" that are not blood kin, but sons none the less.

@45,
I have mentioned that MP is pretty stable for AND. We shall see. ;)

JosEPh :old: :cowboy:
 
@45,
I have mentioned that MP is pretty stable for AND. We shall see. ;)

JosEPh :old: :cowboy:

Should you try it in MP, have a look at the thread I've started, there are issues with certain options, but some problems can be avoided. :)
Once MP is a bit more stable, I'll sticky a thread with MP suggestions.
 
I played out this match for about 8 more hours, and with more modern archers and crossbowman I was able to undo the disadvantage of not having iron/copper, and finally conquer my continent. From that point on, my tech lead was great enough I called it a victory.

I updated my copy of AND to the latest SVN, and started a fresh match, on an Archipelago. Why Archipelago? I like water. And it's like playing on a one higher difficulty level, without the higher difficulty handicap. :lol:

Ok, so I started out on a smallish landmass:

Spoiler :


Not so terrible a start. No enemies, and later as it turn out, iron was right next to my capital. But I found that I simply couldn't do anything. I spend 90% of my game time clicking next turn due to lack of hammers to produce much. 200 turns later and I barely had the continent settled.

Spoiler :


I met lots of other civs with a galley, and basically the one civilization on a decent size landmass (Isabella) settled 10 cities and got way ahead of everyone else. It was to the point where I couldn't research anything unless it had already been discovered by a bigger civ. Any original techs would take 200+ turns to research. Tech diffusion was the only way I or the other civs even could keep up.

I tried expanding my economy and spreading out to other islands, but the sheer lack of production on ocean tiles prevented this from ever outpacing the much larger civs. Even my city growth was lackadasial. It took 500 turns for me to get a size 10 city!

This defies conventional wisdom. Historically, (and even now) oceans were the real food source for the world. Cities only existed on oceans or large waterways. Inland cities were not a thing until later more complex societies arose that could build roads to maintain them. Oceans were the real source of growth (and still are, most of the largest cities in the world today are coastal).

I think part of the problem is old. Way, WAY, back when Zappara switched population to consume 3 rather than 2 food, water tiles were never rebalanced. Water tiles are essentially a desert in RAND. They don't provide enough food or resources to make them worth using, unless you can get some powerhouse wonders to improve them, and even then, they are still not better than a city with a few hills and farms! The River irrigation/Canals mid-game help, but it comes *way* too late. I was already 1/3 the score of the top Civ by the time these came around (400 vs 1200) .

So here are my proposals:

1.) Raise coast and ocean base production by 1 food. This makes them at least sustainable even w/o a lighthouse. A lighthouse then allows cities to grow.

2.) Allow construction of a new "fishing nets" and "fishery" improvement on all coastal tiles. The fishing nets gives +1 hammer. The fisher gives +1 commerce. It provides Allow the workboat to create these, but without consuming the workboat. I suspect the AI can deal with this ok. Playtesting probably required to confirm.

3.) New "Smokehouse" fishing building, requires coastal city & fishing tech. Requires 1 resident to operate (I added a special XML tag for this way back) gives an extra +1 food per ocean tile (not coast).

This will probably need playtesting to get the balance right, but it should make Archipelago and water-maps playable again.

Savegame in question attached, feel free to mock me on how badly the AI is beating me:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/49805/Afforess AD-0806.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
2.) Allow construction of a new "fishing nets" and "fishery" improvement on all coastal tiles. The fishing nets gives +1 hammer. The fisher gives +1 commerce. It provides Allow the workboat to create these, but without consuming the workboat. I suspect the AI can deal with this ok. Playtesting probably required to confirm.

There was a discussion recently which suggests the default work boat ai wont build improvements on water except on resources. When Koshling looked into it it appears that the default work boat ai skips any code that is not to do with resources. Probably as a way of reducing turn times. Koshling fixed it in Caveman2Cosmos so it is possible that AND2 now has the new code.
 
Nice, another fan of water maps ;] Archipelago tends to be too broken up for me though, as you noticed most civs will be marooned on islands. I tend to go for snaky continents, although this rather quickly pits you against your neighbours.

Yeah, would be nice for ocean maps to not be so slow, it always felt a little odd.
 
There was a discussion recently which suggests the default work boat ai wont build improvements on water except on resources. When Koshling looked into it it appears that the default work boat ai skips any code that is not to do with resources. Probably as a way of reducing turn times. Koshling fixed it in Caveman2Cosmos so it is possible that AND2 now has the new code.

I've imported almost everything done by Koshling; I believ I've left out only the SuperForts part.
 
Why Archipelago? I like water. And it's like playing on a one higher difficulty level, without the higher difficulty handicap. :lol:

I'm not so sure about that. :) It's a bit harder for you but I think it's even harder for AI; you know AI always sucked at naval strategy. Koshling and C2C team improved it quite a bit, but I guess AI is still at disvantage when it comes to naval strategy.

Any original techs would take 200+ turns to research. Tech diffusion was the only way I or the other civs even could keep up.

Even when researching a "new" tech, I've seen that usually this time to research shortens up, either because your cities get bigger or you build new ones or because you get tech diffusion help by another civ discovering that tech.

This defies conventional wisdom. Historically, (and even now) oceans were the real food source for the world. Cities only existed on oceans or large waterways. Inland cities were not a thing until later more complex societies arose that could build roads to maintain them. Oceans were the real source of growth (and still are, most of the largest cities in the world today are coastal).

I think part of the problem is old. Way, WAY, back when Zappara switched population to consume 3 rather than 2 food, water tiles were never rebalanced. Water tiles are essentially a desert in RAND. They don't provide enough food or resources to make them worth using, unless you can get some powerhouse wonders to improve them, and even then, they are still not better than a city with a few hills and farms! The River irrigation/Canals mid-game help, but it comes *way* too late. I was already 1/3 the score of the top Civ by the time these came around (400 vs 1200) .

So here are my proposals:

1.) Raise coast and ocean base production by 1 food. This makes them at least sustainable even w/o a lighthouse. A lighthouse then allows cities to grow.

I think I agree on this one, although it might mean rebalancing some other things because AI (and human players) will grow up faster.

2.) Allow construction of a new "fishing nets" and "fishery" improvement on all coastal tiles. The fishing nets gives +1 hammer. The fisher gives +1 commerce. It provides Allow the workboat to create these, but without consuming the workboat. I suspect the AI can deal with this ok. Playtesting probably required to confirm.

As I said to DH, I believe this part of AI behaviour has already been imported from C2C. I'm a bit worried it could be overpowered giving +1 hammer to all coastal tiles, but I think we can try.

3.) New "Smokehouse" fishing building, requires coastal city & fishing tech. Requires 1 resident to operate (I added a special XML tag for this way back) gives an extra +1 food per ocean tile (not coast).

This will probably need playtesting to get the balance right, but it should make Archipelago and water-maps playable again.

Sounds reasonable to me, except for fishing tech; you can't enter ocean until later in the game, so are we sure we want to give +1 food to a tile that in theory can't be reached? I'd like to hear what Vokarya has to say about it since he's the one taking care of buildings/units/techs.
 
<snip>
So here are my proposals:

1.) Raise coast and ocean base production by 1 food. This makes them at least sustainable even w/o a lighthouse. A lighthouse then allows cities to grow.

2.) Allow construction of a new "fishing nets" and "fishery" improvement on all coastal tiles. The fishing nets gives +1 hammer. The fisher gives +1 commerce. It provides Allow the workboat to create these, but without consuming the workboat. I suspect the AI can deal with this ok. Playtesting probably required to confirm.

3.) New "Smokehouse" fishing building, requires coastal city & fishing tech. Requires 1 resident to operate (I added a special XML tag for this way back) gives an extra +1 food per ocean tile (not coast).

This will probably need playtesting to get the balance right, but it should make Archipelago and water-maps playable again.

<snip>

+1 to all!
Although I still play Arch maps with AND. See response to Kryanni below.

@Kryanni,
When you use Arch maps use Low sea level and many tiny islands.

JosEPh
 
That's a really tiny island!

I also like watery/islands maps, though I try to tinker with the settings so most of the actual land is hill, giving some production.
And honestly I would have regenerated the map to start on a larger continent.
 
I agree with Afforess about water tiles 100%.

Water maps allow my cities to have some time to develop before the inevitable " land grab" that happens when my civ has been discovered. But I only play domination, scientific and extinction(?)

The game will always place me on a crappy tundra island no matter what level I choose to play so I cheat and trade places with the guy that has "Cadillac Island" so I can be competitive.
 
[...]

The game will always place me on a crappy tundra island no matter what level I choose to play so I cheat and trade places with the guy that has "Cadillac Island" so I can be competitive.

:rotfl:

I shall use "Cadillac Island" in the future
 
The ideas put forth about increasing the productivity of water tiles makes me a bit apprehensive.

True, water tiles were never rebalanced after the food consumption rebalance, but buildings associated with resources compensate for this (fishing traps & fishing huts). The Maoi Statues national wonder is valuable because of how meager the food and commerce are on water tiles. The Harbor/port line of buildings make sea side cities valuable for their trade routes and health bonuses, making them very conducive for great people farms.

Buffing the wholesale value of water tiles would give them an unfair advantage over other well placed cities. Water tiles can be underwhelming, but so are other unimproved tiles, which lead to the necessity of investing in buildings like the lighthouse. Frankly adding kelp as another coastal resource or as some sort of early era building would be a more measured approach to making shoreline cities more viable while not overpowered.
 
The ideas put forth about increasing the productivity of water tiles makes me a bit apprehensive.

True, water tiles were never rebalanced after the food consumption rebalance, but buildings associated with resources compensate for this (fishing traps & fishing huts). The Maoi Statues national wonder is valuable because of how meager the food and commerce are on water tiles. The Harbor/port line of buildings make sea side cities valuable for their trade routes and health bonuses, making them very conducive for great people farms.

Buffing the wholesale value of water tiles would give them an unfair advantage over other well placed cities. Water tiles can be underwhelming, but so are other unimproved tiles, which lead to the necessity of investing in buildings like the lighthouse. Frankly adding kelp as another coastal resource or as some sort of early era building would be a more measured approach to making shoreline cities more viable while not overpowered.

It was mentioned elsewhere, but the primary outcome of this discussion was that coastal sea tiles food was increased from 2 -> 3 and ocean from 1 -> 2. No buildings, resources, improvements, etc were added. This simple change seems to have been more than enough.

Yes, it does make water cities more advantageous, as it should. Cities are settled on the water for this reason in real life. It doesn't diminish the need for proper city management.
 
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