[BNW] So it's been a few years...

[Mklangelo]

But I'm playing again and my favorite game is Babs for the Science win.

Some of the strategies I use are, if it can be done in a timely manner is to open both Tradition & Liberty and use them simultaneously as needs dictate. I research Pottery > Writing/Archery and any techs I need to get resources online.

GL > Oxford University are priorities as well. PT if I can get it and NC prior to a second city founding.

I'm playing on Prince level right now. The problem I'm having is enough Gold to build a military that can withstand aggressive AI like Dido or Harald. I'm chugging right along killing them all in tech (as evidenced by what their stealing from me) and out of the blue Harald had 8 Military units surrounding my city and I have 2 Bowman and a Swordsman and it's over before it began.

So my noobish question would be, how can I finance an army that will be big enough to make messing with me a bad idea AND keep upping that Science? Of course I'm getting Currency and EIC and try to have a fluid and efficient Defense. I'm a Turtle player by nature.

Any insights will be greatly appreciated! I've attached a file.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

 

[mbbcam]

Diplomacy will help. Sell anything you don't need to your neighbours and set up Trade Routes to them. Don't be afraid to sell Strategic Resources you are not using. Keep a watch on aggressive AIs (e.g. Harald) and bribe them to attack others if you can. You need reasonable defences, and about six Archers/Composite Bows/Crossbows will deter aggressors to begin with.

It is received wisdom that mixing Social Policy trees is sub-optimal play, unless perhaps you are playing Poland. You might benefit from finding Tabarnak's Three City Tradition guide somewhere on these forums. It gives a pretty solid basis for a game. Or if you prefer Liberty, look for Moriarte's guide, also on these forums. These guides tend to suggest that you need to settle three cities by about turn 50 (Standard Size map, Standard speed), build three Libraries and get the National College finished by about turn 85, or thereabouts. That should give you a good base for the rest of the game.

Edit: here is Tabarnak: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/tradition-three-cities-approaches-bnw.25617/

And Moriarte: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/liberty-domination-walkthrough.503931/

 

[Mklangelo]

Diplomacy will help. Sell anything you don't need to your neighbours and set up Trade Routes to them. Don't be afraid to sell Strategic Resources you are not using. Keep a watch on aggressive AIs (e.g. Harald) and bribe them to attack others if you can. You need reasonable defences, and about six Archers/Composite Bows/Crossbows will deter aggressors to begin with.

It is received wisdom that mixing Social Policy trees is sub-optimal play, unless perhaps you are playing Poland. You might benefit from finding Tabarnak's Three City Tradition guide somewhere on these forums. It gives a pretty solid basis for a game. Or if you prefer Liberty, look for Moriarte's guide, also on these forums. These guides tend to suggest that you need to settle three cities by about turn 50 (Standard Size map, Standard speed), build three Libraries and get the National College finished by about turn 85, or thereabouts. That should give you a good base for the rest of the game.

Edit: here is Tabarnak: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/tradition-three-cities-approaches-bnw.25617/

Thanks for the reply, mbbcam,

I'll definitely check Tabarnak's 3 city guide. Obviously getting NC prior to second city will be impossible with getting 3 cities by turn 50. I thought that was a pretty sound principle. I'll read the guide.

Happy New Year.

 

[Mklangelo]

I think the Tabarnak's instructions are incompatible with a Science Victory.


First of all, if you're trying to found 3 cities by turn 50, you would certainly need the free settler you get in the Liberty tree.

You can forget about Oxford University, which is a key Wonder for Sci Victory. You would need to build 2 Libraries and 3 Universities assuming you got GL in your Capitol. Which by the way is unlikely.

 

[Nizef]

But I'm playing again and my favorite game is Babs for the Science win.

Some of the strategies I use are, if it can be done in a timely manner is to open both Tradition & Liberty and use them simultaneously as needs dictate. I research Pottery > Writing/Archery and any techs I need to get resources online.

GL > Oxford University are priorities as well. PT if I can get it and NC prior to a second city founding.

I'm playing on Prince level right now. The problem I'm having is enough Gold to build a military that can withstand aggressive AI like Dido or Harald. I'm chugging right along killing them all in tech (as evidenced by what their stealing from me) and out of the blue Harald had 8 Military units surrounding my city and I have 2 Bowman and a Swordsman and it's over before it began.

So my noobish question would be, how can I finance an army that will be big enough to make messing with me a bad idea AND keep upping that Science? Of course I'm getting Currency and EIC and try to have a fluid and efficient Defense. I'm a Turtle player by nature.

Any insights will be greatly appreciated! I've attached a file.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Hi there,
I think you have done a decent job when it comes to science but I would like to suggest the following:
1. Even if you have locked the production focus from the city screen, you are working an awful lot of 1 food + 1 production tiles, try to lock those tiles with better output manually (every single time any of your cities grow and especially those with two food or more!) This is the best way to make your cities grow faster and thus setting you up for a better science output. Make sure that you work the specialist slots when you have such buildings (like universities).
2. The map you submitted do not have many luxuries nearby. But one that really struck me, was that you didn´t found a city next to the dyes seven tiles from Babylon. Napoleon took it with his fifth city. It should have been your luxury. I would also have founded Akkad significantly closer to Babylon to save on road maintenance. When you go tall, six hexes in between your cities is the most optimal and you could have had two cities on exactly that distance from your capital. Three city play would be viable on this map. Next time you try, I would recommend that you would go for four or five cities. It speeds up your development!
3. Always build markets and banks in your cities. This is very important to ensure that you have positive cash flow. You also have unimproved tiles of spices. They should be improved and sold: at least Napoleon seemed to have enough money to pay 6-7 gold per turn (gpt).
4. The best defense you can have in the early game is Composite Bowmen. Now you didn´t have Construction at all. Later on, you need Machinery for the Crossbowmen. For a three city empire, it is not about the amount of units, but about how developed they are. If Harald would attack you while you have a Crossbowman (XB) inside Babylon (and walls), his units would melt like icecream on a hot day. I would probably have 4-5 XBs and 2-3 melee units. WIth that you could fend him off all day long since you already are ahead in technology. I actually played some 60-70 turns and built 3 XB, one Pikeman, 1 Swordsman and one Knight and one Trireme. That was enough to take me to rank 3 in military power. Use the Demographics screen to check once in a while and make sure that you are not 11-12 on a large map. Try to be roughly in the middle of the pack, places 6-8 (on a huge map) is usually enough for the AIs to back off.
5. General things: you have barely scouted at all. On a large map like this one, I would have built two scouts before anything else and also a Trireme. I scouted around and you have met all the AIs on your continent but there are large areas that are totally unsettled. I would question your idea to go for both Tradition and Liberty if you only have 2-4 cities. Next time I would recommend to skip Liberty and take other useful policies like Commerce (1-2 policies) and of course Rationalism. Also Exploration or Aestethics might be worthwhile, dependent on where you are taking the game. I would also recommend a religion. It will help you with happiness and culture development.
Enjoy your game and hopefully you find my recommendations useful. Btw I usually play on Deity and you can check out some of my games in the Enjoyable Deity Games thread if you are interested.

 

[Mklangelo]

Hi there,
I think you have done a decent job when it comes to science but I would like to suggest the following:
1. Even if you have locked the production focus from the city screen, you are working an awful lot of 1 food + 1 production tiles, try to lock those tiles with better output manually (every single time any of your cities grow and especially those with two food or more!) This is the best way to make your cities grow faster and thus setting you up for a better science output. Make sure that you work the specialist slots when you have such buildings (like universities).
2. The map you submitted do not have many luxuries nearby. But one that really struck me, was that you didn´t found a city next to the dyes seven tiles from Babylon. Napoleon took it with his fifth city. It should have been your luxury. I would also have founded Akkad significantly closer to Babylon to save on road maintenance. When you go tall, six hexes in between your cities is the most optimal and you could have had two cities on exactly that distance from your capital. Three city play would be viable on this map. Next time you try, I would recommend that you would go for four or five cities. It speeds up your development!
3. Always build markets and banks in your cities. This is very important to ensure that you have positive cash flow. You also have unimproved tiles of spices. They should be improved and sold: at least Napoleon seemed to have enough money to pay 6-7 gold per turn (gpt).
4. The best defense you can have in the early game is Composite Bowmen. Now you didn´t have Construction at all. Later on, you need Machinery for the Crossbowmen. For a three city empire, it is not about the amount of units, but about how developed they are. If Harald would attack you while you have a Crossbowman (XB) inside Babylon (and walls), his units would melt like icecream on a hot day. I would probably have 4-5 XBs and 2-3 melee units. WIth that you could fend him off all day long since you already are ahead in technology. I actually played some 60-70 turns and built 3 XB, one Pikeman, 1 Swordsman and one Knight and one Trireme. That was enough to take me to rank 3 in military power. Use the Demographics screen to check once in a while and make sure that you are not 11-12 on a large map. Try to be roughly in the middle of the pack, places 6-8 (on a huge map) is usually enough for the AIs to back off.
5. General things: you have barely scouted at all. On a large map like this one, I would have built two scouts before anything else and also a Trireme. I scouted around and you have met all the AIs on your continent but there are large areas that are totally unsettled. I would question your idea to go for both Tradition and Liberty if you only have 2-4 cities. Next time I would recommend to skip Liberty and take other useful policies like Commerce (1-2 policies) and of course Rationalism. Also Exploration or Aestethics might be worthwhile, dependent on where you are taking the game. I would also recommend a religion. It will help you with happiness and culture development.
Enjoy your game and hopefully you find my recommendations useful. Btw I usually play on Deity and you can check out some of my games in the Enjoyable Deity Games thread if you are interested.

Thanks Nizef and mbbcam! As I read and absorb more of the Three City Plan, it is making more sense.

I know it's designed for Diety level but I'm guessing it will work just fine for Prince, King and Emperor?

 

[Nizef]

Thanks Nizef and mbbcam! As I read and absorb more of the Three City Plan, it is making more sense.

I know it's designed for Diety level but I'm guessing it will work just fine for Prince, King and Emperor?

Yes it will. But there are a few things you will need to adjust slightly:
1. On Deity the AIs will clear all Barbarian camps very fast but on Prince/King/Emperor you will need to do it yourself, so I would recommend 1-2 mobile units to clear the camps before they wreak havoc in your territory (and maybe even taking the Honor opener!).
2. AIs will be behind so you have a very slim chance of stealing techs from them. Thus finishing times for a Science victory will almost always be slower on lower difficulties.
3. Having a fourth city will certainly help your play and speed up your finishing times.

I also recommend that you save Oxford (and the Rationalism finisher) for Atomic or Information era techs to maximize the benefit! If you one day want to play on higher difficulties, I would also advice you to try games without the Great Library. No doubt it gives you an early boost but the things you have to give up or postpone (settlers, units, buildings) is too high a cost to justify the GL on high difficulties. And on Deity... well, I have seen the AI build the GL on turn 26 on Epic speed. No human player could ever match that.

I hope you do not think, that I think, that it is anything wrong with playing on Prince. After all, the aim is to have fun and the difficulty level is not really relevant.

 

[Mklangelo]

...I hope you do not think, that I think, that it is anything wrong with playing on Prince. After all, the aim is to have fun and the difficulty level is not really relevant.

I never got that impression. I'm just learning some serious methods then once I'm comfy, I'll make my way up the difficulty levels.

But it does remind me of the Seinfeld episode.

 

[mbbcam]

I think the Tabarnak's instructions are incompatible with a Science Victory.


First of all, if you're trying to found 3 cities by turn 50, you would certainly need the free settler you get in the Liberty tree.

You can forget about Oxford University, which is a key Wonder for Sci Victory. You would need to build 2 Libraries and 3 Universities assuming you got GL in your Capitol. Which by the way is unlikely.

I think if you watched a few videos you might revise your opinion of what is possible! I know I did ... Try this one (it isn't Science, but you will still learn a lot)

In this forum there is also a thread with the title Fastest Science Victory. Have a look at it. One player managed to win on T189, if I remember correctly. There is a Hall of Fame with fast times. Remarkable what people can do.

 

[Mklangelo]

I think if you watched a few videos you might revise your opinion of what is possible! I know I did ... Try this one (it isn't Science, but you will still learn a lot)

In this forum there is also a thread with the title Fastest Science Victory. Have a look at it. One player managed to win on T189, if I remember correctly. There is a Hall of Fame with fast times. Remarkable what people can do.

Oh and I agree. After watching the video in the original link by Tabarnak, I can see where it gives a good foundation. I'm going to practice it.

 

[mbbcam]

I remembered yesterday that Acken had done a classic three-city National College opening playing as Babylon to demonstrate the concept. Someone on civfanatics was insisting that it was not possible! Here it is:

I hope it helps you.

Edit: a few observations --

Acken was among the best players to post on these forums, in my opinion, so it is worth listening to his comments!

Population = Science, so the more citizens you have, the more Beakers you generate. Note that in this video by T73 (when he completes National College) he has three cities with 10, 7, and 5 pop. His Beakers per turn is around the same number as the turns he has played -- try achieving that with only one city! He reaches Education on T89, which allows him to get Universities, with a large increase in Science output. Oxford might be useful for Science, but the absolute basis of Science is population. (A common strategy among experienced players is to "save" the construction of Oxford and time it precisely so that you complete it exactly when an "expensive" technology becomes available, so that you can get it instantly. This is commonly done to get Dynamite for a Domination game, but obviously you can choose which tech you require depending on the game.) Other than the free tech, Oxford only gives three extra Beakers -- equal to three citizens (though it also has slots for Great Works, and is useful for Culture, too).

The best players of this game seem to be IT guys and accountants! I think they tend to look at the numbers, not the pretty pictures. So they will make calculations along the lines of "which will give me the largest change to the Science numbers here? A Library, or a Caravan/Cargo Ship that I send to an AI for Science leech?" On lower levels you may not get much Science from a Trade Route, but on higher levels it can be a useful addition (not to mention the fact that it makes a competitor less likely to attack you, because they get money from the Trade). I am bad at arithmetic, so I usually fail at these calculations.

Poor players (like me!) tend to build everything. It is slow. Acken sells everything that isn't nailed down, and buys stuff all over the place. (The AIs have more Gold on Deity, so it is easier to do this than on lower levels.) The Civilopedia is a useless resource and tells you loads of things you can learn anywhere with a modicum of intelligence, but tells you almost nothing that is useful for playing the game. So you have to learn painfully from other players about the cost/value of Luxes and Resources. Note that you can sell a Lux for 7 gpt, but to buy one will cost you 9gpt. With Declaration of Friendship you can get a lump sum of 240 Gold for each Lux. You can also get loans from Friends -- you will also see Acken do this in the video. Typically you can get 240 Gold for 10gpt (or multiples thereof). Horses and Iron can be sold for 2gpt, but only if you sell them one at a time. This results in a lot of tedious clicking, but it you need the Gold ... You can also get lump sums from Friends, usually 45 Gold for one Horse or Iron (or multiples thereof). I would never have discovered this without watching videos. Speed is essential in this game, and the sooner you get things, the better. So learn to buy and sell, not build.

Scouting is important because you get a discount for techs from meeting the AIs. If you have met them and they have already researched a tech, it costs fewer beakers. You can tell which techs have already been researched by looking at the tech tree. You will see that not all techs on the same level cost the same amount, so you can tell what the AIs are up to! Meeting City States is also important -- alliances can help hugely with happiness and culture.

I've probably left a lot out, but I hope this is of some help.

 

[Mklangelo]

I remembered yesterday that Acken had done a classic three-city National College opening playing as Babylon to demonstrate the concept. Someone on civfanatics was insisting that it was not possible! Here it is:

I hope it helps you.

Edit: a few observations --

Acken was among the best players to post on these forums, in my opinion, so it is worth listening to his comments!

Population = Science, so the more citizens you have, the more Beakers you generate. Note that in this video by T73 (when he completes National College) he has three cities with 10, 7, and 5 pop. His Beakers per turn is around the same number as the turns he has played -- try achieving that with only one city! He reaches Education on T89, which allows him to get Universities, with a large increase in Science output. Oxford might be useful for Science, but the absolute basis of Science is population. (A common strategy among experienced players is to "save" the construction of Oxford and time it precisely so that you complete it exactly when an "expensive" technology becomes available, so that you can get it instantly. This is commonly done to get Dynamite for a Domination game, but obviously you can choose which tech you require depending on the game.) Other than the free tech, Oxford only gives three extra Beakers -- equal to three citizens (though it also has slots for Great Works, and is useful for Culture, too).

The best players of this game seem to be IT guys and accountants! I think they tend to look at the numbers, not the pretty pictures. So they will make calculations along the lines of "which will give me the largest change to the Science numbers here? A Library, or a Caravan/Cargo Ship that I send to an AI for Science leech?" On lower levels you may not get much Science from a Trade Route, but on higher levels it can be a useful addition (not to mention the fact that it makes a competitor less likely to attack you, because they get money from the Trade). I am bad at arithmetic, so I usually fail at these calculations.

Poor players (like me!) tend to build everything. It is slow. Acken sells everything that isn't nailed down, and buys stuff all over the place. (The AIs have more Gold on Deity, so it is easier to do this than on lower levels.) The Civilopedia is a useless resource and tells you loads of things you can learn anywhere with a modicum of intelligence, but tells you almost nothing that is useful for playing the game. So you have to learn painfully from other players about the cost/value of Luxes and Resources. Note that you can sell a Lux for 7 gpt, but to buy one will cost you 9gpt. With Declaration of Friendship you can get a lump sum of 240 Gold for each Lux. You can also get loans from Friends -- you will also see Acken do this in the video. Typically you can get 240 Gold for 10gpt (or multiples thereof). Horses and Iron can be sold for 2gpt, but only if you sell them one at a time. This results in a lot of tedious clicking, but it you need the Gold ... You can also get lump sums from Friends, usually 45 Gold for one Horse or Iron (or multiples thereof). I would never have discovered this without watching videos. Speed is essential in this game, and the sooner you get things, the better. So learn to buy and sell, not build.

Scouting is important because you get a discount for techs from meeting the AIs. If you have met them and they have already researched a tech, it costs fewer beakers. You can tell which techs have already been researched by looking at the tech tree. You will see that not all techs on the same level cost the same amount, so you can tell what the AIs are up to! Meeting City States is also important -- alliances can help hugely with happiness and culture.

I've probably left a lot out, but I hope this is of some help.

Great post.

I'll watch the video!

btw. First time out with Tabarak's 3 city plan and nobody wanted 1 horse at 2gpt. They were either broke or not friendly, does that sound like China?

 

[Nizef]

Great post.

I'll watch the video!

btw. First time out with Tabarak's 3 city plan and nobody wanted 1 horse at 2gpt. They were either broke or not friendly, does that sound like China?

Usually AIs will not pay 2 gpt for 1 horse/iron. Normally you will get 3 gpt for 2 horses/iron. If you prefer flat gold then you can get 45 gold for 1 horse/iron on Standard speed and 67 gold on Epic speed. Luxuries to friendly AIs should sell for 240 gold (Standard) or 360 gold (Epic).

 

[mbbcam]

@Mklangelo -- Thanks. Given your interest in Science Victory you might be interested to read the thread dedicated to it: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/fastest-science-victory.563022/

It is VERY long, but contains a wealth of information on all aspects of the game. Just be aware that the beginning of the thread is quite old and some later updates may have changed certain aspects of the game.

 

[Mklangelo]

@Mklangelo -- Thanks. Given your interest in Science Victory you might be interested to read the thread dedicated to it: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/fastest-science-victory.563022/

It is VERY long, but contains a wealth of information on all aspects of the game. Just be aware that the beginning of the thread is quite old and some later updates may have changed certain aspects of the game.

It's a tough video to follow. His screen is at a very high resolution and he's flopping and flipping all over the map. One needs to constantly rewind and replay to understand what he's doing. (Not to mention what he's saying from time to time)

The video is nearly unwatchable as a result of the way he constant bounces the map every which way and goes back and forth to menus often doing nothing.

Completely annoying.

But the thread he mentions at the beginning is full of great stuff! Thank you!

 

[Grendeldef]

But I'm playing again and my favorite game is Babs for the Science win.

I thought I'd play a few turns to see what happens and comment after that but I can't make the first turn - this is just weird.
Few observations hopefully not all already mentioned by others.

- 15 pop city not running the Uni and Akkad even has an unemployed citizen without running either of Uni slots
- 2 unimproved luxes
- horses without pasture
- riverside tiles without farms
- jungles without trading posts
- Writer's G only now under construction but Oxford already nuilt
- not only pointless but harmful road to Akkad & road on Furs
- Scout sleeping by the city while the world is unexplored - Huge World, teched Architecture and met only two CS leaves me speechless assuming the # of CSs & AIs are default
- the tech path is odd to put it mildly
- only 2 cities while there's endless uncontested land available
- openining Liberty just to get Republic & Citizenship while staying with 2 cities doesn't make any sense
- no faith at all yet there're only 2 religions in the world


Do you by any chance have an earlier save, preferrably T0 save to share? I'd rather try that than continue this.

 

[Grendeldef]

OK, I survived the initial shock and played few turns. Whether my direction leads to optimal result is debatable but the current situation is much closer to where one should be at this point.

I didn't bother settling new cities at this point but I recruited a couple from France and would/will few more from Denmark as Harald just DoWed which is great.

Here's my game save from T302. Hardly an example of smooth sailing but something to concider in terms of what one could do.

 

[Nizef]

If you like Mklangelo, you could submit a turn zero start for us to play. I will participate for sure and hopefully Gren is up for it too. Then we could compare notes afterwards. Just so that you know it, Gren is among the best players in the world so having her as a sparring partner is as good as it gets.

EDIT: I was thinking of a brand new map. That was not self-evident based on the first part of my message.

 

[Grendeldef]

I'm not too keen on playing on Prince especially on lower speeds as AI seems only be a passive bystander but I am curious enough to start one from scratch to see how one ends up in a situation like this. Also my muscle memory is solidly tuned for normal speed so I happily sold my luxes for 240g here as well. GSs seemed to be popping for every few turns and spies were on overtime so all the timings were off not that it matters much.

 

[Nizef]

I'm not too keen on playing on Prince especially on lower speeds as AI seems only be a passive bystander but I am curious enough to start one from scratch to see how one ends up in a situation like this. Also my muscle memory is solidly tuned for normal speed so I happily sold my luxes for 240g here as well. GSs seemed to be popping for every few turns and spies were on overtime so all the timings were off not that it matters much.

It could perhaps be capped at the first 200 or 250 turns on Epic or 150 or 175 on Standard? Anyway, it was only my offer to Mklangelo and I don´t want you to feel that you have to participate.