So what's wrong with fascism?

Well, i am not sure how serious you are being here :(

To me that nazi statue is exceedingly ugly. It is utterly kitch in its vulgarity and outright barbarous features, worst of which is the head itself. Really it reminded me of Lucky Luke:

luckyluke_5.jpg


And at least Lucky Luke was supposed to be a joke, not something aspiring to be high art.
 
I agree. That nazi statue is certainly competently executed. But it seems to lack any artistic merit.
 
Well, i am not sure how serious you are being here :(

To me that nazi statue is exceedingly ugly. It is utterly kitch in its vulgarity and outright barbarous features, worst of which is the head itself. Really it reminded me of Lucky Luke:

luckyluke_5.jpg


And at least Lucky Luke was supposed to be a joke, not something aspiring to be high art.

Decently serious. You guys aren't saying anything. What do you mean by "kitsch in its vulgarity/barbarous features". You aren't really saying anything to explain what about the statue looks ugly to you.
 
Ok, since you are serious, i guess i could try to answer.

The nazi statue does not look at all like art whatsoever. It mostly resembles- if anything - some cheap Hollywood production of ancient Rome, where the hero is depicted as some sort of plebian-risen-to-soldier, a sociopath who glorifies blind violence and little else. To me that statue is in no way a depiction of a beautiful human form. It is the form of a dumb peasant and moreover a murderous one.

I am pretty sure some pornstars still look similar to that statue, since they also are an epitomy of vulgarity. But the statue is nothing artistic, and serves mostly so as to show just how uncultured and failed the nazi artists were. Next to it the painting by Hitler i posted is almost a masterpiece...

Really, your statue is a caricature of a human psyche. The ancient Greek statues were masterpieces of ideas, beauty, pain, love, and even power, but not in any brutal and uncultured manner. For example here is the famous statue of Zeus (others claim it is of Poseidon) :

36.jpg


I have been to the museum in Athens where this is placed. I still recall how vast the statue is, really an emblem of power. But you won't see lowly facial expressions here, nor some caricature of a body.
 
Hmm.

Perhaps, or rather most certainly, it's all a matter of personal taste. And familiarity with certain works also has a lot to do with taste: we favour what we're familiar with.

Perhaps the Nazi statue will grow on me.
 
Decently serious. You guys aren't saying anything. What do you mean by "kitsch in its vulgarity/barbarous features". You aren't really saying anything to explain what about the statue looks ugly to you.
Well, to elaborate on what I said before, and what you said there, is the statue is vulgar/barbarous because that's what it is conveying, but it apes heroism, and that's why the statue fails as art.

What we have here based on our two interpretations, is an entity which is masculine, sexual, and ready to commit violence, but divorced from an internal world, from fear or joy or genuine anger, and exists simply to be masculine, sexual and ready to commit violence.

To me, that's pornographic ( which is ironic, because that's exactly what the Nazis accused "degenerate art" of being). Laocoon, Apollo, Hermes, and the Boxer all intend to convey a human experience, while Bereitschaft seeks to cast off the human condition and replace it with something else, something defined by masculinity, sexuality and violence. In my mind, that puts it roughly on the level of of Mortal Kombat in it's artistry.
 
Well, to elaborate on what I said before, and what you said there, is the statue is vulgar/barbarous because that's what it is conveying, but it apes heroism, and that's why the statue fails as art.

What we have here based on our two interpretations, is an entity which is masculine, sexual, and ready to commit violence, but divorced from an internal world, from fear or joy or genuine anger, and exists simply to be masculine, sexual and ready to commit violence.

To me, that's pornographic ( which is ironic, because that's exactly what the Nazis accused "degenerate art" of being). Laocoon, Apollo, Hermes, and the Boxer all intend to convey a human experience, while Bereitschaft seeks to cast off the human condition and replace it with something else, something defined by masculinity, sexuality and violence. In my mind, that puts it roughly on the level of of Mortal Kombat in it's artistry.

See this is something a little more along the lines of what I was hoping for. To me it seems we see the same thing from a formalist perspective but draw different conclusions. You find the overt chauvinism to be too much - too gaudy to be appreciable as art.

Why do you find it "apes heroism"? I think it's an interesting point and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Personally I find that that overt chauvinism in all likelihood is exactly what the artist was trying to encapsulate, and therefore succeeds. I never said it was beautiful, I said it was effective. It shows an ideal and uses formalist elements to effect that ideal wonderfully. I should also mention I love the decision to use bronze here; it fits the aesthetic well, with the smooth, mechanicality of the element adding to the perfectionism and idealism that Brecker is striving for (or it would appear he is striving for) with this piece.

The problem that Varwnos is falling into is that you aren't interpreting the art from a formalist perspective. The idea behind formalist art criticism is that you aren't supposed to look at the art a) from "what it could have been and b) from a referential/mythological/historical/comparative standpoint. You're supposed to look solely at the elements which comprise the piece - its lines, shadows, texture, etc. and identify whether or those elements work effectively to convey an emotion. What you're doing is holding the piece of up to an absurd standard. It is silly to compare the piece to past Greek sculptures because it is not Classical Greek sculpture. It's coming from the late 1930s, with all the accompanying styles, motifs, influences, and aesthetics. It's like complaining about Derain because his primitivist stuff doesn't portray the female nude as realistically or "beautifully" as Titian does.

The trap you're falling into is dividing art into categories. At the top is Greek sculpture (high art) and at the bottom is porn and this. It's an arbitrary distinction and one which, in my opinion, isn't a particularly good way to look at art because you're excluding buckets of art out of hand.

This is, again, leaving aside the fact that you're dealing in vagaries still. What about those Greek pieces conveys "beauty, pain, love, and even power, but not in any brutal and uncultured manner.", whereas Brecker's conveys vulgarity and a lack of artistry?

Naturally art is all going to come down to opinion, but I think Varwnos is being unnecessarily dismissive of the piece.
 
Interesting that you used my old username. Since it means "Baron", i guess it fits here since i am dismissive of the peasant statue :mischief:

ParkCungHee phrased it more sensitively than myself, maybe also because i was way too disgusted by that nazi statue... As he said, the statue in question does not present anything real, anything human, it is a vast subtraction of humanity and its replacement with a nearly-utterly artificial and monotonous "ideal" of cruelty. It fails to present cruelty as anything artistic (probably it did not attempt to either), for here we do not have the cruelty of Lady Macbeth, but the cruelty of a peasant so there is really no antithesis or pathos at all, there is merely a sad one-sidedness which is in effect an utter lie.
 
800px-Campini-Caproni_C.C.2_2009-06-06.jpg

Tell me that's not a beautiful plane?
Technically not a jet, as the wiki page points out. Rather, it is a ducted fan engine.
As designed by Campini, the aircraft did not have a jet engine in the sense that we know them today. Rather, a conventional 900 hp (670 kW) Isotta Fraschini L.121 RC.40 12-cylinder liquid-cooled piston engine was used to drive a compressor, which forced air into a combustion chamber where it was mixed with fuel and ignited.[2] The exhaust produced by this combustion was to drive the aircraft forward.
 
See this is something a little more along the lines of what I was hoping for. To me it seems we see the same thing from a formalist perspective but draw different conclusions. You find the overt chauvinism to be too much - too gaudy to be appreciable as art.
Well, it's not so much that there's too much chauvinism as a lack of anything there else. Michaelangelo's David for example, I think convey's masculinity, sexuality and the readiness to kill far more effectively then Bereitschaft, but there is also so much more to David. There is also fear, anticipation etc. and the very point of Bereitschaft, it seems, is that he's divorced from these things.

Why do you find it "apes heroism"? I think it's an interesting point and I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Well, I want to make it clear that even Barbarism itself is a valid subject for art. Paul Nash's "We are Making a New World" or Ilya Repin's "Ivan the Terrible and His Son Ivan" to various degrees are great displays of barbarity. But the point of Becker's work is to display these things: violence, sexuality and masculinity, as synonyms for the heroic. He chose a greek style to his sculpture, granted it a superhuman physique, we are clearly supposed to admire this figure. That, I think is inseparable from the piece.

I think Kyriakos chose the right word when he described it as an abomination. That is literally what we are describing: an inhuman. If that was all we were meant to see, directly in it's true nature, it should not be pleasant. He has placed it in the outward form we are meant to recognize as heroic, as if by mere association with the artistic style of the Greeks would make the figure into a hero.
 
:)

I agree. Also there is a nice quote by Gustave Flaubert, according to which "there is nothing more complicated than a barbarian". So in effect even a work depicting actual barbarism would not be as fake as that nazi statue, but something more multi-faceted.

Another quote by Flaubert was that "What is Real is what is Beautiful" (or that only Beauty is Real). While this has a number of meanings, it does echo also the ideal of somatic beauty, which is depicted in many ancient Greek statues, and certainly not at all in the nazi one.
 
Technically not a jet, as the wiki page points out. Rather, it is a ducted fan engine.
As I understand that, that's still a jet engine, just a jet engine with a conventionally powered compressor. That's still a jet plane the same way a turbocharged automobile is still not wind powered.
 
Well, it's not so much that there's too much chauvinism as a lack of anything there else. Michaelangelo's David for example, I think convey's masculinity, sexuality and the readiness to kill far more effectively then Bereitschaft, but there is also so much more to David. There is also fear, anticipation etc. and the very point of Bereitschaft, it seems, is that he's divorced from these things.


Well, I want to make it clear that even Barbarism itself is a valid subject for art. Paul Nash's "We are Making a New World" or Ilya Repin's "Ivan the Terrible and His Son Ivan" to various degrees are great displays of barbarity. But the point of Becker's work is to display these things: violence, sexuality and masculinity, as synonyms for the heroic. He chose a greek style to his sculpture, granted it a superhuman physique, we are clearly supposed to admire this figure. That, I think is inseparable from the piece.

I think Kyriakos chose the right word when he described it as an abomination. That is literally what we are describing: an inhuman. If that was all we were meant to see, directly in it's true nature, it should not be pleasant. He has placed it in the outward form we are meant to recognize as heroic, as if by mere association with the artistic style of the Greeks would make the figure into a hero.

:shrug: Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from, and even agree with most of it. I still like it from a formalist perspective. I think it does what it sets out to do. The only real reason this hulking mass is such an issue is because it was produced in the 1930s, rather than the 1880s or 90s. Compared to the Heartfields and Picassos and Duchamps of the world I find it a lesser work, but certainly notable. I don't think I would call it "vulgar" (whatever the heck that means), and I certainly wouldn't go so far as to dismiss all of fascist art merely because it doesn't measure up to some "Greek ideal" set down nearly 2000 years ago.
 
It is not really about the Greek ideal. It is about the Reality behind it. So Japanese art not inspired in any direct way (or even in any way at all) by Greek art could be fine as well, as long as it expressed something Real and not a caricature of an ugly idea, like the one i see in the nazi statue.

Any artistic movement has merit, and potentially can produce something important, as long as it expresses the reality of the depths of the human psyche. Otherwise it will fail regardless of where it was produced. I am pretty sure many ancient Greek statues failed, we just do not know of them since no one cared for them and they just got destroyed with time. Likewise we only know of the plays which won in the Attic Drama competitions, and so on. Time is always a good judge in that way :)
 
:shrug: Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from, and even agree with most of it. I still like it from a formalist perspective. I think it does what it sets out to do. The only real reason this hulking mass is such an issue is because it was produced in the 1930s, rather than the 1880s or 90s. Compared to the Heartfields and Picassos and Duchamps of the world I find it a lesser work, but certainly notable. I don't think I would call it "vulgar" (whatever the heck that means), and I certainly wouldn't go so far as to dismiss all of fascist art merely because it doesn't measure up to some "Greek ideal" set down nearly 2000 years ago.
Oh no, I'm certainly not doing that. I just held up a jet plane covered in Fasces as beautiful. I'm just saying, that particular piece is not what I would set out as an example of good Fascist art.
 
The Bereitschaft is basically a Frank Frazetta painting in three dimension.

/not helping
 
Personally I find that that overt chauvinism in all likelihood is exactly what the artist was trying to encapsulate, and therefore succeeds.

I will only embarrass myself if I wade too deeply into this discussion, but I had exactly the same thought. If a statue made by a Nazi seems to be shallow and brutal it's probably not an accident. ;)
 
The Bereitschaft is basically a Frank Frazetta painting in three dimension.

/not helping

The nazi statue manages to be worse than that :) Although i agree there are some similarities, since Frazetta also depicts something which is just not real at all, a blown-out of all proportion idea of masculine power (or feminine as well) in which any interesting/real aspect of humanity is totally absent.
However at least in Frazetta there is juxtaposition of the "heroes" with some even more brutal, monstrous form, which they are fighting, so in a way it could be argued that they had to become monsters themselves so as to survive in their hostile environment.

The nazi statue is just a glorification of a stupid and subhuman idea.
 
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