So you call me a 'fanboi'

[CivFanaticMan]

Pfffttt, i'm returning the favor.
We're all quite aware of your drastic stance against any issues that may fit your personal agenda. It doesn't negate the fact that opinions flow through a common communication highway we all must share.
I've been more active on CFC forums for just barely two months or so & every time i enter what may seem to be positive threads, there's always a good chance *YOU* had shown up already to expose your negative influence over any replies anybody writes.
Manners, tone, extreme comments.

I'm not a Moderator to "watch over" people's activity but i certainly can detect your presence and how you actively seek to favor the dark side of the force in every fashion imaginable - so to speak.
While Dale had some solid arguments (be they for or against gameplay flaws) about facts, we're certainly at liberty to communicate our thoughts without having to endure your continuous retaliation that adds nothing really worthy (even if exaggerated both ways) to the discussion. You're officially Black Listed and Ignored - from now on.

(Sadly AGAIN, i was forced into an Off-Topic response!)
Last crappy call, AFAIC.

well... as Candide tells us: we don't live in a perfect world, therefore Civ5 may not have the potential everyone talks about...

 

[Dale]

Yes, you appear to be a "fanboi" (your words).

Nice to see you still quote people out of context.

Some weeks ago you claimed the game just had to be played as intended. When being asked what that would mean, you dived away.

I said to play as intended instead of using exploits and you'll possibly find a more fun game.

Then you accuse Sullla just to want to have a Civilization IV.5.

That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. Same as you are entitled to your opinion about Sullla's commentary.

When somebody points out that in the 2k forum apparently you are indicating people having problems with Shafer_5 are running pirated copies, you start crying "Do you call me a liar now?"

Once again you manipulate the truth to try to fire up your own agenda.

At 2K forums I said that I know of a different company which deliberately adds code to cause crashes in pirated copies. Someone said that I was making absurd and apologetic excuses for why games have bugs these days, ie: I was telling a lie. Besides, the comments at 2K Forums had absolutely nothing to do with Civ 5.

You've been a tester for that game. The game is full of flaws, bugs, bad design and weak implementation.
So, either you didn't do your job as tester or you weren't taken seriously by the developers. On the other hand, who would take a self-proclaimed "fanboi" seriously?

Self-proclaimed 'fanboi'? You don't even get the purpose of this thread.

 

[Islet]

Besides, the comments at 2K Forums had absolutely nothing to do with Civ 5.

Nice cover-up, Dale

Allow me to quote in full your 2K forum post then:

Just a comment here (and do not take this the wrong way), but I've worked in a games studio before and they deliberately included code which detected if the game was pirated and introduced frequent random crashes to basically piss the pirater off. Maybe Firaxis did the same thing and some of these people are actually piraters who are moaning the loudest? This is why in a previous thread I asked 2K Greg if there was any indication of how many MS crash reports the devs were receiving.

Note: I do realise there are legitimate customers with crash problems too, and not always from trying to stupidly run marathon huge games on computers 5 years old.

-Dale, Post #18, Thread: 2K - The silence is deafening!

While your OP may have legitimate criticism of Civilization V, your thread title suggested something totally different. So I don't know whether you want to discuss the flaws of the game or your alleged status as a "fanboi".

Try to be nicer to criticism of your arguments, ya?

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: Guys, discuss the topic of the thread and not each other.

 

[JohnnyW]

Moderator Action: Guys, discuss the topic of the thread and not each other.

Not to be a stickler, but the title of the thread implies that the topic is Dale's 'fanboi'-ism.

Perhaps a better title would help guide the topic.

 

[Dale]

Not to be a stickler, but the title of the thread implies that the topic is Dale's 'fanboi'-ism.

Perhaps a better title would help guide the topic.

Actually, the thread title is quite fitting to the topic. Over the months in many threads I've been called a 'fanboi' many times. Whilst I don't see it as a derogatory term in itself, the usage of the term has been derogatory towards me by the users. I've been painted incorrectly as one of those '100%, no question asked, cheering supporters of the game' when the reality is quite different. My position in the OP actually clarifies my position (which I've also been asked a number of times).

 

[shadowplay]

Excellent post, Dale. I agree with both of your major points.

 

[Dale]

Try to be nicer to criticism of your arguments, ya?

Except the criticism wasn't exactly about any of my arguments, but an attempt by Isnarch to paint me in a negative tone. His comments didn't even have anything to do with this entire thread. Some would call that an attack of the poster, not the content, YA?

 

[bobbyboy29]

Good call Dale! What I really think you should add to this is that not only do you have some serious issues with this game, but despite this you're more than willing to continue to work to improve the game through mods (and have the skills to do it too to boot), as you did with your anti-ICS mod, which had some great ideas (some of which may or may not have influenced the patch changes). And I'm sure you have more coming!

I'm perfectly fine with people having serious issues with this game, but what we really need more of is people like Dale who are willing to improve the game despite its flaws so we get a better product in the end. The LAST thing we want to do is to alienate ANYBODY intent on improving the game, even if we may not agree with his/her ideas.

 

[kaltorak]

Good post Dale, I agree.

On a side note, I worked a few months as alpha tester for EA and they didn't fix anything of what we told them.

 

[LDiCesare]

I believe what makes Dale more optimistic than many is that maybe he viewed in the beta-testing stage what could be done with the source code?
For instance, right now, diplomacy is unfixable. It would have, imo, to be totally rewritten in C++.
Until that is possible, mods will be limited in their ability to correct game flaws.
But even then, finding a single mod that is agreed upon as being a 'standard' mod will be hard, and the average player will have to look in a maze of mods to find what they want. Not to mention MP.

 

[kaltorak]

That's true, diplo should be totally reworkable to make the game good. Since I haven't seen any mods changing diplomacy at all, I guess it's not possible (not talking about CS diplo)

 

[LAnkou]

well, agreement should have terms of ending (ie there should be conditions when it ends, at least in time, nothing's forever)
Can you give some details about that?

 

[Camikaze]

Immersion:
[...]
I think ultimately what made Civ 4 BtS so successful, and so loved, is the immersion factor. Regardless of what was happening on the big screen, there were always some little sub-systems of the game to delve into to fill the quiet moments, such as religion, corporations or espionage. For Civ 5 however, we find that whilst the actual core gameplay hasn't changed 'that' much there is a lack of sub-systems to immerse oneself in during the quiet moments of the game. And I think this is critical, because it is this immersion level that Civ has been famous for, and the cause of the phrase One More Turn.....

I'm still in the early days of playing at the moment, but I find myself partially disagreeing that immersion is an issue. Now, I think what you're saying is correct to an extent; those sub-systems do not appear to be as present. But the difference is only really noticed by really keen players, not necessarily by casual players. What I mean by this is that there is plenty of stuff to do in the game for most people. I have yet to come across a real 'quiet moment' where I felt I had nothing to do. In Civ4, I did occasionally get this. It may have been that in 4 there were more things to do, but I just didn't do them. But it's to 5's credit that they seem to bring the action to you more than 4, thus immersing those more casual players to a greater extent, without necessitating a search effort to find something to do.

Now, is it a good thing for casual gamers to win out as opposed to 'fanatics'? Well, as more one of the former, I'd say 'yes'. That the game may've been dumbed down in some regards is not a good thing, but that immersion is more accessible to casual players probably is.

 

[zuraffo]

Yeah, I get quite a lot of fun out of the product in the initial 90 hours. Those were the days...

I'm still in the early days of playing at the moment, but I find myself partially disagreeing that immersion is an issue. Now, I think what you're saying is correct to an extent; those sub-systems do not appear to be as present. But the difference is only really noticed by really keen players, not necessarily by casual players. What I mean by this is that there is plenty of stuff to do in the game for most people. I have yet to come across a real 'quiet moment' where I felt I had nothing to do. In Civ4, I did occasionally get this. It may have been that in 4 there were more things to do, but I just didn't do them. But it's to 5's credit that they seem to bring the action to you more than 4, thus immersing those more casual players to a greater extent, without necessitating a search effort to find something to do.

Now, is it a good thing for casual gamers to win out as opposed to 'fanatics'? Well, as more one of the former, I'd say 'yes'. That the game may've been dumbed down in some regards is not a good thing, but that immersion is more accessible to casual players probably is.

 

[Isikien]

Not to be a stickler, but the title of the thread implies that the topic is Dale's 'fanboi'-ism.

Perhaps a better title would help guide the topic.

This

Dale, either you're looking for confrontation or you're asking to be trolled. In the context of making a discussion it is poor show.

 

[Camikaze]

Yeah, I get quite a lot of fun out of the product in the initial 90 hours. Those were the days...

That's not my point at all. My point is that whilst criticism of depth is a valid criticism in itself, it is not the same as a criticism of immersion. IMO Civ5 appears to allow for deeper immersion for the casual player than Civ4, even if there is a lack of depth.

 

[SuperJay]

Good points about the lack of immersion, and interesting info about the math(s). I don't speak maths, so I wasn't aware of some of those more glaring problems.

Personally, I have no agenda, I'm just a disappointed Civ fan. The game may indeed have "potential," but I didn't pay $60 USD for "potential," I paid for a solid Civilization game. I do have a lot of faith in the modding community - more faith than I have in Firaxis at the moment - but IMO, the role of modding should be to enhance and customize a GOOD game, not fix a broken one. If a developer has to rely on its fan community to make its game playable and fun - because the developer couldn't or wouldn't do so prior to release - that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

I also wonder how long the modding community will be interested in continuing to work on Civ5. It sounds like the multiplayer community is already drying up, but MP probably has far more obstacles than modding does at the moment.

 

[Clement]

IMO Civ5 appears to allow for deeper immersion for the casual player than Civ4, even if there is a lack of depth.

Well here is something i can disagree one hundred percent on, it's the immersion that i most miss in Civ 5, i don't feel like a leader of a nation at all when i play the game, i feel like a boardgame player rolling a dice against other simulated human opponents, pretty badly simulated ones at that.

I remember declaring war on one of the leaders and laughing when he replied with something like "haha! i show you why you will be wrong" what world leader would say "haha" like nelson muntz from the simpsons? lol. loads of silly things like this from indestructable cities made of magic bricks to a truly incomprehensible inability to build international trade routes make the game fall short in my opinion of what is minimally believable and what is'nt, hence why i can't find immersion anywhere in the game, just my opinion of course!

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

I remember declaring war on one of the leaders and laughing when he replied with something like "haha! i show you why you will be wrong" what world leader would say "haha" like nelson muntz from the simpsons? lol. loads of silly things like this from indestructable cities made of magic bricks to a truly incomprehensible inability to build international trade routes make the game fall short in my opinion of what is minimally believable and what is'nt, hence why i can't find immersion anywhere in the game, just my opinion of course!

Would you care for some salad?[Cough] I made it my self.[cough cough]
[cough] Rich unprotected coastal cities. [cough]
Is that a treaty in your [cough] pocket?[cough]

[pant] Desert Fairy[cough]Magic[cough][cough]

Aghh! sorry for the sudden cough attack folks!