So you call me a 'fanboi'

[LDiCesare]

but just because YOU don't know how it works doesn't mean that it's meaningless.

Sure. Here's a meaningful example:
I liberate Hiawatha. The guy was dead. Now he's alive thanks to me. He's a backward renaissance guy. I'm in the modern era and have lots of modern troops crossing through his territory in order to get rid of the guy who killed him.
He still has zero units, and 3 turns after being revived by me, despite my having troops near his mostly defenseless backward capital, he declares war on me.
Unless he was actively trying to achieve suicide, would you care to explain how this is not meaningless?

 

[SuperJay]

Unless he was actively trying to achieve suicide, would you care to explain how this is not meaningless?

Listen, it's streamlined and organic diplomacy and you have to think about it differently if you're going to understand the new direction of Civ5.

 

[Doctor Phibes]

Sure. Here's a meaningful example:
I liberate Hiawatha. The guy was dead. Now he's alive thanks to me. He's a backward renaissance guy. I'm in the modern era and have lots of modern troops crossing through his territory in order to get rid of the guy who killed him.
He still has zero units, and 3 turns after being revived by me, despite my having troops near his mostly defenseless backward capital, he declares war on me.
Unless he was actively trying to achieve suicide, would you care to explain how this is not meaningless?

I get the feeling that we are not really meant to think of the AIs as people (that would be namby-pamby role-playing, quite inappropriate in Civ: Panzer General). So what is happening there, I think, is that the game itself is just saying to you (via an AI 'player'), 'hey, this guy's done and dusted, shouldn't you be mopping him up?'. It really doesn't like you going off down a branch line, that's what all that rigid stuff with the SPs is about.

 

[kiwitt]

@Dale

Fanboi ?!?!? - Actually you're really a committed Civ Franchise supporter. - Civ 4 Mods, Civ 4 Tutorials, Civ 4 Colonisation Mods, Civ 5 Mods, ...

As you know one of the most annoying things in Civ 4 was the SoD. It was really an annoying feature of your Mod "Road to War" as well, that once you defeated an enemy's SoD, the whole nation fell like a "house of cards". I thought this was entirely unrealistic. The AI should spread out it's forces to defend it's cities. I solved this by making it an "happiness" negative to have units in cities, as the AI is still inclined to defend it's cities, but due to the level of unhappiness increaing for each new unit it adds, it limits how many it has in each city. This forces the units to spread out amongst the AI's cities.

I'll be playing Civ 4 for the foreseeable future and I agree that Civ 5 is not Civ 4 BTS. When Civ 5 gets to that level of maturity it may be better.

 

[Camikaze]

Well here is something i can disagree one hundred percent on, it's the immersion that i most miss in Civ 5, i don't feel like a leader of a nation at all when i play the game, i feel like a boardgame player rolling a dice against other simulated human opponents, pretty badly simulated ones at that.

I remember declaring war on one of the leaders and laughing when he replied with something like "haha! i show you why you will be wrong" what world leader would say "haha" like nelson muntz from the simpsons? lol. loads of silly things like this from indestructable cities made of magic bricks to a truly incomprehensible inability to build international trade routes make the game fall short in my opinion of what is minimally believable and what is'nt, hence why i can't find immersion anywhere in the game, just my opinion of course!

Well, the quality of 'immersion' is highly, highly subjective, so YMMV, but as others have pointed out, this particular aspect was perhaps worse in Civ4. Add in the full screen diplomacy with leaders speaking in their native language, and I would think the immersion has been stepped up fairly obviously on the diplomatic negotiation front (that is, not necessarily with diplomacy itself, but with the process of carrying out diplomacy).

The early days make it all.
Civ V may be a good game if you expect to play it for 50 or 100 hours.
It is not when you expect it to have lasting appeal as Civ 1,2,4 (or 3 for those who liked it), which means hundredS or thousands of hours of fun.
So maybe it's fun for casual players, but not those who want MP, nor those who want to 'cheat' by altering the map to their liking in-game, for instance.

What you say is probably true in regards to reduced potential for being captivated over an extended period of time for a dedicated player, but I'm not sure it is correct for a casual player. And I would think that such a reduction is a reflection of depth rather than of immersive quality.

Yes, I get it. I am trying to say I feel the same (more immersive) as you during my initial "testdrive". I don't know. I am waiting to see if you can still be so optimistic into your 6th or 7th playthrough.

Well, hopefully I'll still be optimistic about it by then.

Just to clarify my point; let's say that a casual player needs 5 things to do to keep their attention and remain immersed, and a more hardcore gamer needs 10 things. It may be that Civ5 only has 5 things in total, and that Civ4 had 10. But it's only the 5 that the casual player will notice regardless of the total number of possibilities. And if those first 5 are more accessible for the casual player in Civ5 than in Civ4 (which I think is the case), then for the casual player, Civ5 will be more immersive. So yes, fault the design on lack of depth, but I think the efforts to immerse the player with each feature that is there are superior to in Civ4. Or at least that's the impression I get thus far.

 

[moscaverde]

I agree with the immersion problem of Civ 5, in with it have a less immersive playing.
Many game mechanics of Civ 5 are too gamey or to abstract; again this remember me the sandbox vs boardgame argument.

Camikaze made an interesting point in that the immersion the game provides is in touch with the wishes of the newer/"casual" players. There's no need for the developer to align the game in a more immersive way if the new buyers doesn't want it.

Sad for me =/

 

[kaltorak]

agree with green fly

 

[Valkrionn]

All I'll really say on the subject is that I agree with Dale on his points, and have said much the same in the past, and that Sullla did have some good points in his analysis, but at the same time had many blatant flaws (such as friendly diplomacy being impossible post patch); Which is why analyses should never be based solely on one game, using one gameplay style.


I hope to address both concerns Dale raised in the Eden mod... We have some ambitious ideas.

 

[bananamana]

Dale jumps the shark. Me? I am taking my talents to South Beach. The Settlers 7 demo is almost done downloading.

Well if a game isn't entertaining - immersion, etc - then where does that leave us? I am researching "city building games" on the internet and trying to find one I might like. Gone are the days of just buying a game and hoping (or assuming - in Civ V's case) that it will be a good, naturally fit.

In V, I like when my units are fighting and winning. That part is fun. The rest is a chore - getting them in position, waiting for the AI to overextend, etc. Now that everything is harder it is more of a chore than fun. It's fun getting my units promotions - oh well they nerfed that x2 XP policy. Now it is less fun. I just don't understand. It's not improving AI to make cities harder to take and nerfing my promotions. On war games I try to get the policy quickly and load up on XP. Now it is borked.

Uncle Sid Wants You - to stop discussing the closed beta!

I thoroughly enjoyed Sullla's article. It expressed many of the issues I have thought on. Poor Dale offhandedly says Sullla wants Civ 4 BTS.2 and has to come out with his own "where I stand thread." I have been there. He didn't really say that and I felt you did come out pretty quickly without any actual rebuttals or opinions of content.

Regarding Sullla's post, one thought that stuck with me is the value of potential. He's right, everything has potential and potential doesn't mean a great deal. Mike Tyson had potential to be the greatest heavyweight of all time. Barry Sanders had potential to come back into the NFL and still give people a show. Those kids from Hoop Dreams had potential to be NBA players. Potential is everywhere.

One thing Sulla didn't mention was that games that don't live up to hype or expectations or potential usually results in an influx of new forum members (myself included) who came to voice their problems and concerns. That, in addition to what he mentioned about the forums being divided into Haters and Fanboys.

There's more games and more game companies in this world and I need to broaden my horizons.

I am all for Civ 5 figuring out what kind of game it is and living up to its potential. Until then, I will do my best to stay out of it. Unless I can get my first mod going and then I will be back in it. That resources .lua file is a real B though.

Also, we shouldn't be too mean to Shafer, maybe he will come and do some pro bono programming in the form of mods. I say that half-joking and half serious. Maybe this is his first and last go around in gaming and he may want to come back to the "fan" side of things and I think we should welcome him. If I got picked to be a video game designer I know all hell would break loose. Imagine how Charlie did when he took over the Chocolate Factory? There's no chance. The inconvenient truth is that Charlie ruined the company. They sugarcoated it in the movie, but that's the mainstream media for you. When the factory closed though, Charlie was able to return home to his neighborhood and all the wags said "Well, you gave it your best. That Wonka is a wog."

OK, nm, settlers demo is done. Good night and good luck.

Tropico 3 & Tropico 3 Absolute Power = WIN for City Builders

 

[Babri]

Sure. Here's a meaningful example:
I liberate Hiawatha. The guy was dead. Now he's alive thanks to me. He's a backward renaissance guy. I'm in the modern era and have lots of modern troops crossing through his territory in order to get rid of the guy who killed him.
He still has zero units, and 3 turns after being revived by me, despite my having troops near his mostly defenseless backward capital, he declares war on me.
Unless he was actively trying to achieve suicide, would you care to explain how this is not meaningless?

Problem identified. Civs liberated should get a huge boost in relations with the liberator.
But that would be a short term fix. In order to fix it completely, they need to make AI do some calculations about their strength + allies strength against your strength etc before declaring war.

 

[Samuil]

Does this thread really need to take up forum space?
Most of us never heard of you and could not care less if someone called you fanboi...
Neither should you... People can have their opinions

 

[JLoZeppeli]

Well, I have a pitch document for a stand alone Civ 5 product linked in my sig (wasn't taken up, so I'm debating whether to do it as a Civ 5 mod or just make it into a game I can sell). Have a read and tell me what you think. (Note: a pitch document's goal is to highlight the major features, not the entire design)

I also hear Sullla put out there that he might put on paper his design for a "Civ" styled game.

I'm quite interested Dale in your project, if it's a mod or a stand alone (in the latter i hope you have the team to work on it)... I always though that the best way to do a good game is picking the best features of other products around, fitting them togheter if it's doable, enhancing them and put some of your ideas. As en example i like rpg games a lot, but i think that most of them failed to set out anvironment immersive. Bioware delver good stories, but their worlds are so fake that lack in immersion. Take an ambient like Assassin's Creed 2 in a Bioware type of game and see.... And we don't need a seamless world not a free romanig gmae like Fallout 3 to deliver that, just closed maps like they do in another game like The Witcher... The secret is in the map "life", if it's believable (and we know very wel that Dragon Age maps are no way believable).

 

[NukeEm]

Finding someone else's mistakes is easier then making your own design.

I agree with this completely. This, paired with internet culture where it is now has lead to some insanely intolerant discussions where people are essentially telling other people that what they like is wrong.

How can what I like be wrong? I like 1upt. So what? How am I wrong for liking something? It just seems strange. I do appreciate people who say they preferred stacks because they felt like they were commanding large armies. That I can understand... but simply saying what someone likes is wrong doesn't do anything for the discussion. It's just more trolling...

 

[Dinhcara]

Similar for luxuries, the first of any type gives a happiness boost, but after that they are meaningless. If you have 1 or 10 of a luxury it still gives the same bonus.

I thought I might toss my two cents in about luxuries. I don't consider them entirely meaningless after the first one. Yes, it's more important to get that one first luxury resource under your control and improved, but I find myself always looking for multiples of luxuries for trade fodder. Trading 1 for 1 luxuries can net you more happiness (faster golden ages) or you could trade the luxury for gold. That's just my opinion. Loved your post Dale. Personally, the ones I would consider "fanbois" in this thread (and in general, this forum) are the ones who are posting with utter vitriol against anyone giving Civ V positive feedback.

 

[JLoZeppeli]

I agree with this completely. This, paired with internet culture where it is now has lead to some insanely intolerant discussions where people are essentially telling other people that what they like is wrong.

How can what I like be wrong? I like 1upt. So what? How am I wrong for liking something? It just seems strange. I do appreciate people who say they preferred stacks because they felt like they were commanding large armies. That I can understand... but simply saying what someone likes is wrong doesn't do anything for the discussion. It's just more trolling...

I like 1UPT too. The fact is that if someone likes 1UPT should play tactical wargames instead of a civ game, as i do... That's non good for a strategy-management game, you could like it, but that doesn't mean that is right. People like various things, a lot of them like stupid things: the fact that they like those things do not make them (the things) more intelligent...

 

[JBConquests]

Don't gimme that. There is no disclosure of confidential information. It's a simple yes no answer, and my question was largely rhetoric because you must have in some way or form feedback to them the issue (which is the function of a beta tester) and they have failed to act on it.

Either that or you have failed your duty as a beta tester.

In both cases, I don't see the point now of explaining your position with regard to this product unless somehow you are seeking closure through this.

And as a personal aside, you really shouldn't care what people have called you. Being called names is a norm on the internet and you should've developed enough resistance.

You are giving Beta testers more power than they actually have. I have been a developer on products which have beta testers (Not Firaxis or Civ) and some companies either partially or in whole ignore Beta feedback. Beta becomes more of a marketing gimmick than what it is intended for. Now I have no insight into Firaxes beta testers to know how it went.

In fact, some companies management ignore their own developers feedback.

 

[Txurce]

bla bla bla....

"This game has potential". I really cannot hear this crap anymore.

Not true. You are addicted to hearing it and responding to it. My condolences.

 

[Txurce]

I'd like to know how you pulled that one out. In such circumstances, assuming few forests, the map generation code is biased to turn some land into hill. Plus it'll send you additional goodies to enhance your start location, mostly luxuries.

I think it helps if you've logged 600 hours, which he has. So have I, and I've also seen it more than once... with only the standard complement of luxuries. Most Civ 5 starts are very good, but they are (reasonably enough) not weighted to all be approximately as good.

 

[Dale]

Does this thread really need to take up forum space?
Most of us never heard of you and could not care less if someone called you fanboi...
Neither should you... People can have their opinions

It would help if you read the actual first post.

I'll also take your advice: I don't care about your opinion.

 

[Samuil]

It would help if you read the actual first post.

I'll also take your advice: I don't care about your opinion.

I read the first post even before your reply dude...
But the truth is... This whole thread about "glorious me was called fanboi" idea feels a bit (just a tiny bit) egocentric or narcissistic... Sure, you go on about game immersion and such, but post starts and ends with you being called that...
Just my 2 cents, I don't give a rats a** whether you care about my opinion or not
But, as its new year, and I'm into all that X-mas mood...
There - you are not a fanboi ... Case closed, move on people, nothing to see here