Solutions to Fix the Holy Roman Empire Problem

[Kaiser Mac Cleg]

To be honest, I'm really annoyed at the inclusion of the HRE. I don't see why a loose confederation of city-states and duchies deserves to be represented by a civilization. Also, why is Charlemagne their leader when he was in command of the Frankish Empire, before the HRE even existed? To me, the Holy Roman Empire is nothing more than a period in central Europe's history. If I wished to include them in any game, I'd simply use the Germans or some other faction to represent them.

In my opinion, this is a waste of a civilization...
Well, I guess we're lucky that Civ4 is easily modded, eh?

 

[Napalm102]

It's here to stay. Too late to change anything now. It is another unique civ in the Civ IV universe, which means more options/opponents and ultimatelly fun. So I'm happy about it.

I really think that if you want more or less historically accurate game go play Medieval Total War 2. But Civ IV is all about the "what if" scenario and I'm quite happy to have France, Germany and HRE exist all side by side with Aztec bordering them next door.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

It's here to stay. Too late to change anything now. It is another unique civ in the Civ IV universe, which means more options/opponents and ultimatelly fun. So I'm happy about it.

I really think that if you want more or less historically accurate game go play Medieval Total War 2. But Civ IV is all about the "what if" scenario and I'm quite happy to have France, Germany and HRE exist all side by side with Aztec bordering them next door.

But it's NOT! What's next for civ? Austria....along with the other Germanies? It's a dangerous precedent. If the HRE is civ-worthy....will we see Aragon? Britain? Confederate States of America? It's an excuse for Firaxis to get lazy, and commercial, and if you're not frightened by the mere possibility....well...I don't know what to say. We're supposed to CARE, we're willing to pay MONEY for it.

And the Total War series is nowhere close to being historically accurate. In fact, CA seems to go out of its way to be laughably INaccurate. And not just for perfectly reasonable balance considerations either.

In either case, I'm studying for a degree in history, so I'll be hitting the books and learning some Python...

 

[Solo4114]

A dangerous precedent? Jesus christ, get a grip people! It's a video game. It's not a history lesson.

Yes, I agree that adding in HRE is kind of goofy when HRE is more of a political/religious entity than what I would consider a "civilization" or an "empire" per se. It's an odd duck, really.


But all this wailing and gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands? Over a video game? Relax guys.

If you want to play an Earth map without the HRE included, hey, go for it. Make the game as realistic as you want. But for all the random, fractal, continents, etc. maps out there, why is this worth quite so much vitriol?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

A dangerous precedent? Jesus christ, get a grip people! It's a video game. It's not a history lesson.

Yes, I agree that adding in HRE is kind of goofy when HRE is more of a political/religious entity than what I would consider a "civilization" or an "empire" per se. It's an odd duck, really.


But all this wailing and gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands? Over a video game? Relax guys.

If you want to play an Earth map without the HRE included, hey, go for it. Make the game as realistic as you want. But for all the random, fractal, continents, etc. maps out there, why is this worth quite so much vitriol?

Way to take what I said out of context. It's a dangerous precedent for Firaxis.

 

[madscientist]

It is a game, not big deal. As part of enjoying the game I would very much like to Charlemange represented as a great leader (which he should have been in CIV vanilla, IMHO). I can live with the HRE but would have preferred him to be leader of the Franks (not French nor German, he was neither).

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

As far as I know, all of the Low Countries were inhabited by the Franks, also the current French-speaking parts of the Benelux (Wallonia and Luxemburg). The border of France and the HRE divided the Low Countries in two, but not along a linguistical line.

Your forgetting the frisian, saksen, and some other minor tribes. Wich are responsible for all the dialects in the current netherlands.

Ethymologically, the word 'Dutch' is the same as 'Deutsch'. Swiss German, which is closer to medieval German than other German dialects, knows the the word 'Dütsch' for 'German', even more similar to 'Dutch'. So it seems, back in the days, outsiders viewed people from the Low Countries as Germans, even more German than the Germans themselves...

dutch or deutch comes from diets. wich means something like= common people. and what was spoken in that time by germanic people.

 

[Pomp]

Way to take what I said out of context. It's a dangerous precedent for Firaxis.

Dangerous how? Are people going to stop buying their games in protest if they continue down the slippery slope of including HRE-style groups as playable civs?

At any rate, I think the only solution to make everyone happy is to rename it to the Holy Polish Empire of Siam and Polynesia and make Adolf Hitler the leader.

 

[LlamaCat]

There is a very reasonable amount of anger and bewilderment at the announcement that the HRE is included in BtS as civilization. The arguments against their inclusion very correctly point out that Holy Roman Empire is hardly anything but a proto Germany. Others point out that at it's best, it couldn't be considered a true civilization by any measure, since it was more of an political construct, and no one considered themselves "Holy Romans".

this is a ridiculous post. America is included in every Civ game and that is nothing more than a "political construct," not to mention half the "civs" in this game. Oh yes, that right: it's a GAME.

PS: The [[insert name of any modern state]] was a collection of a lot of small states, not sharing the idea of an ethnocentric "nation"

 

[Solo4114]

I think the major complaint is more that the HRE is akin to, say, the EU rather than a nation or an empire. I still think it's much ado about nothing, though.

And I hardly think that Firaxis including a group like HRE (after all, they also are including the "Native Americans" -- yeah, cause the Inuit, the Iroquis, the Apache, and the Salish all have so much in common with each other) is indicative of them "getting sloppy" or lazy.

Wait until you actually play the game and try out the new mechanics and see the new AI before you start saying "Oh noes!! They're getting lazy!" over the inclusion of a debatable civ.

 

[andrewlt]

To hear people here talk, the most important part of being a civilization is racial/ethnic purity of the type the KKK wants. Civilization isn't synonymous with ethnicity and there's no point in including every single ethnicity in Civ 4. Most states nowadays are political constructs and are not just composed of one ethnicity or another.

 

[TheLastOne36]

American's are Anglo-Saxons just like Canadians and Australians and English people. But America is in the game as well as England.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Say that in America and the politically-correct crowd will kill you.

According to the latest census, Germans outnumber English in America, though this is a bit misleading, since a number of Americans listed their ethnicity as "American," which presumably means English. Either way, A significant number of Americans have ancestries other than the pure-blooded Limey line. And there are a number of Poles in America, I believe.

 

[Phoenix1595]

American's are Anglo-Saxons just like Canadians and Australians and English people. But America is in the game as well as England.

Ha! You've obviously not been to my old home state of California, which has an ever-decreasing plurality of non-Hispanic, European descended white folk (they lost their majority status after the last census). Same can be said throughout the American West. Here in the Big Apple, we have citizens from every nation on earth living, working, and occasionally getting in fights over cabs together.

I am proud to say that America is like the Holy Roman Empire-- a nation of nations.

 

[sydhe]

Americans are American Indians. Everyone else are later immigrants. (Well, the American Indians are too, but they were here first. Probably.)

 

[Archduke Otto]

This link actually tells us more about the US: the US are at least as much German as was the HRE...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg

SO ACTUALLY, WE HAVE THREE INCARNATIONS OF GERMANY! GERMANY, THE HRE AND THE US!

Ha! Thake that!

 

[cf_nz]

Personally I'm completely stunned by the amount of negative feedback the addition of the HRE has caused, I never realised people took computer games so seriously. Each to their own though I guess.

I'm rather curious to know how many people feel so strongly about this that they are not going to buy BtS because the HRE is included, any one?

 

[Archduke Otto]

No, I'm gonna buy it cuz the HRE is included.

I didn't like it at first, but I'm slowly getting fond of it.

 

[Jan H]

Your forgetting the frisian, saksen, and some other minor tribes. Wich are responsible for all the dialects in the current netherlands.

I'm sorry, I forgot about the Frisians (in the North of The Netherlands) and the Saxons (in the East), because I'm more familiar with Belgian history. But the Franks were the dominant tribe. They moved inside the Roman Empire already in the third century.

 

[LlamaCat]

The more I read people complaining about it, the more I want to buy it and like the fact that HRE is included. Why not included loose confederations as civs? throw in the European Union, why not?? throw in the former U.S. Confederacy, add Taiwan, add the local Moose Lodge... heck, I would even play as the FRENCH if they were included!! it's just a game and it's fun. it's not supposed to reflect real history, just give a semblance of it and you can play it out as you like. there are other games already out there that go further than the HRE concept.

edit: that French line was just a joke, in case there are any wily Frenchmen out there ready to pick a fight over Freedom Fries