Solutions to Fix the Holy Roman Empire Problem

I'm really loving HRE being in the game now.

The trait combo for Charlemagne is also very interesting and the UU and UB.
 
monkspider said:
There is a very reasonable amount of anger and bewilderment at the announcement that the HRE is included in BtS as civilization. [...]
In light of all of these facts, most members of the CFC would consider their inclusion to be very blockheaded (and dare I say, dumb) move.
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This is the biggest lie I have ever seen on this forum !

Here are the polls on the first page:
1) Do you prefer the Holy Roman Empire to Poland? http://forums.civfanatics.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=16244
HRE winning with close to 50%.
2) The Holy Roman Empire is neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss! http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=227261
"Eh, it's ok. Not my first choice, but I don't mind." winning with 40%
3) Which civ would you prefer nstead of HRE ? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=227334
Answer: Stay with Holy Roman Empire (27%)
4) What is your favorite new BtS Civ ? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=227827
Answer: Holy Roman Empire (22%)

How many polls do whiners need to understand that posting their negative opinion in 2.375 different threads and polls won't make of them a majority ?
 
PS: I'd like to add one more poll, in case some whiner pulls out the argument that people votes randomly. No chances here as well:

Do You Vote on BtS Polls? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228177
"I vote on most of them, and truthfully do so according to my preferences " about 37%.
 
Well, in fairness, some of those polls have a combined "negative on the HRE" amount that is either a majority or at least a large plurality.

Others, however, are self-selecting questions (IE: Which civ would you prefer). Even with an option for "stick with HRE", the people voting in that poll are going to be more likely (based on the thread title) to simply say "I want X, Y, or Z instead of HRE" rather than "No, no, keep the HRE" or for that matter "I really couldn't care less."

I get that folks are ticked about the HRE and such, but honestly, this seems like a lot of uproar over a relatively minor issue. I suspect that no matter what civ Firaxis added, there'd be people saying "How come you didn't add [insert the civ I wanted added here]??"
 
onedreamer said:
PS: I'd like to add one more poll, in case some whiner pulls out the argument that people votes randomly. No chances here as well:

Do You Vote on BtS Polls? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228177
"I vote on most of them, and truthfully do so according to my preferences " about 37%.
Click to expand...

Calling people who oppose the inclusion of the HRE "whiners" is not helpful in any way. This new civ is both unfair and inaccurate ... legitimate grounds for complaints, even if most users think it's no big deal. Adopting such negative terminology will only fuel a rift in the community, not convince anyone. :goodjob:
 
Solo4114 said:
Well, in fairness, some of those polls have a combined "negative on the HRE" amount that is either a majority or at least a large plurality.
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Where ? I gave links and percentages, can you please show it ? Thank you.
 
calgacus said:
Calling people who oppose the inclusion of the HRE "whiners" is not helpful in any way. This new civ is both unfair and inaccurate ... legitimate grounds for complaints, even if most users think it's no big deal. Adopting such negative terminology will only fuel a rift in the community, not convince anyone. :goodjob:
Click to expand...

Why should it be helpful ? Whining is not helpful either. And I don't think that your opinion of HRE is correct, I don't agree that it's just another modern Germany, and I don't agree that Charlemagne lived long before the existance of HRE. If you want to discuss opinions you can answer in Marla Singer thread, which I find the most appropriate, but answering to numbers with an opinion doesn't really make sense. The OP stated that the majority of civfanatics thinks the addition of HRE is wrong, but NUMBERS (not opinions) show that he's lying. If you want to object, do it with numbers please.
 
onedreamer said:
Why should it be helpful ? Whining is not helpful either. And I don't think that your opinion of HRE is correct, I don't agree that it's just another modern Germany, and I don't agree that Charlemagne lived long before the existance of HRE. If you want to discuss opinions you can answer in Marla Singer thread, which I find the most appropriate, but answering to numbers with an opinion doesn't really make sense. The OP stated that the majority of civfanatics thinks the addition of HRE is wrong, but NUMBERS (not opinions) show that he's lying. If you want to object, do it with numbers please.
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No-one is whining. That's just the word you are pushing to mischaracterize the debate; like I said, no-one is going to get convinced by use of mischaracterizing and provocative terminology. That kind of thing just fuels flame-wars, not debate.

I don't care who said what about polls; and if you want my "arguments" that HRE is a second Germany - not really an argument but a set of facts - see my contributions in many threads (all the obvious ones). I've elsewhere demolished the idea that Charlemagne was Holy Roman Emperor ... if you read that and disagree, do so., but no-one so far has came up with anything. I'm afraid there's not really any way around it. Most "arguments" people come up with are based on anachronisms, misunderstandings and unfair determinations which can be applied to all civs in the game, not just the HRE.
 
i myself dont really care that they put in the HRE. normally, i would be fine with that. but what gets on my nerves is that they put in another Western European civ. yes, the game is "Westerno-centric". im fine with that. the Western Europeans took over the world, we all have to live with that.
but i think it is too "Westerno-centric" already.

i think, as i said somehwere before, the HRE was put in in an attempt to "make everyone happy". apparently, not everyone is "happy". most don't really care, but not everyone is "happy".

still, at least we got a real noble stereotypical european knight-in-shining-armour-supporting king and a really killer UU.
 
onedreamer said:
Where ? I gave links and percentages, can you please show it ? Thank you.
Click to expand...

Ooook...

1.) "Do You Prefer HRE to Poland?" -- "Yes" currently has roughly 48% of the vote. "No, Poland is better" has a little over 26%. "I would have liked someone other than Poland" is also at about 24%. Those two combined total just barely 51% -- a majority. Thus, in this poll at least (for the moment) HRE is in the bare minority.

2.) "Neither Holy, Nor Roman, Nor an Empire" -- currently the "Eh, I don't care" and "Yeah, it's great" are well in the lead with ~41% and ~20% each. That's a 60% majority in this poll.

3.) "Which Civ would you prefer" -- already discussed this. It's a loaded question, so I tend to disregard it. If you take this one into account, even if it has 26% (currently the largest single percentage group), the combined opposition is a whopping 74% majority. But, again, I think this one's a loaded question.

4.) "Favorite New Civ" -- HRE has about 22%, with the Dutch just behind at 21%. That means that 78% of the people have a different favorite new civ.



Like I've said, I don't think these polls matter much one way or the other. Some of them are self-selecting or worded poorly. And, of course, there's always the matter of the people on this forum not at all representing the majority of people who buy and play Civ. But even aside from all of that, HRE doesn't exactly have outstanding, unchallenged support in the threads you cited, and from the look of those threads themselves, has substantial opposition. Of course, those are also just pure percentages of the people who participated in the poll.

Also like I said, I couldn't care less about the polls. I understand some of the frustration involved, but not quite the level of histrionics seen on this board.
 
According to the "Do you vote in BTS Polls" Poll:



23.42% only vote in some of the polls.
33.33% Vote in only most of the polls.

18.02% don't vote.

5.41% pick random choices.

2.70% lie most of the time.





So 56.75% of the board might not always add their opinion to a HRE related poll. 18.02% never add there opinion. While 8.70% never give an accurate opinion.


So a HRE poll could possibly be only reflecting the true opinion of only 16.53% of the board.
 
onedreamer said:
I'd like to add one more poll, in case some whiner pulls out the argument that people votes randomly. No chances here as well: Do You Vote on BtS Polls? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228177
"I vote on most of them, and truthfully do so according to my preferences " about 37%.
Click to expand...

What kind of weird evidence is that? This sounds like saying: "Pinocchio does not lie because he says he doesn't". :lol:
 
What I hate is that so many kids play this game. Civ 1 and 2 were played by a different sort of people than Civ 4 is. I miss the times when it was Sid's personal product.
 
and he plays it decently, i assume?

there are four year olds who play M-rated shooter games... easily!
 
Solo4114 said:
But even aside from all of that, HRE doesn't exactly have outstanding, unchallenged support in the threads you cited, and from the look of those threads themselves, has substantial opposition.
Click to expand...

No, they have LOUD opposition. Do not confuse volume with size.

Most people aren't going to go out of the way to defend a choice that's already in the game; what, in the end, is the point?
 
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