Some forgotten-but-important technologies

[whitelaughter]

The same with Micronesia and Maoris. I thought they were island hopping.

No, the distances are huge.
Real world, the reason they could do this is they had the prevailing wind to help them; what they couldn't do was go *back*. Including this in Civ would require adding to trade winds to the map: do able, but a major effort.

 

[Joshua368]

I also hate how Athenian democracy is ignored in Civ4, but was present in earlier civs.

They should have given the Pyramid's effects to some Greek wonder, so that one civ can unlock early democracy or republic through ancient greece.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

They should have given the Pyramid's effects to some Greek wonder, so that one civ can unlock early democracy or republic through ancient greece.

That's what I've been thinking since I started playing the game. It's kinda odd that the structures built by hundreds of thousands of slaves in a theocratic society unlocks things like monarchy and universal suffrage!

 

[GoodGame]

They should have given the Pyramid's effects to some Greek wonder, so that one civ can unlock early democracy or republic through ancient greece.

Or just make Constitution reachable by Oracle slingshot (i.e. earlier in the tech tree).
Though I'm not sure that ancient Athens had a written constitution. Aristotle wrote about their 'constitution', but not sure that they had a written one. Edit; apparently they did.

Hm...gives me a mod idea. Constitution reachable from Code of Law (by a great person), with Paper as a pathway but not a pre-req to Constitution. Hmmm...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Or you could just have it achieved without a paper constitution. Why does it have to be written down on paper?

 

[Ramesses]

Or you could just have it achieved without a paper constitution. Why does it have to be written down on paper?

Actually, I believe the Code of Laws tech is equivalent to a non-paper constitution.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You can have a code of laws that enforces a slavery type of "code" too, though. I meant that the representation could be achieved without a paper constitution (as it applies to the previous posts / discussion)

 

[whitelaughter]

They should have given the Pyramid's effects to some Greek wonder, so that one civ can unlock early democracy or republic through ancient greece.

Or Police State for Sparta?

 

[Abegweit]

No, the distances are huge.
Real world, the reason they could do this is they had the prevailing wind to help them; what they couldn't do was go *back*. Including this in Civ would require adding to trade winds to the map: do able, but a major effort.

This is simply not true. Imagine trying to reach Hawaii from New Zealand when you don't know where Hawaii is or even if it exists! Obviously they must have gone home repeatedly in the course of exploring the Pacific. In fact, they usually paddled against the wind because it was safer; the wind could blow them back home if they didn't find anything.

Some of their trade routes were thousands of miles in length. Quite amazing considering they traveled in canoes.

James Cook "discovered" Hawaii and other Pacific islands because a Polynesian navigator named Tupaia told him where they were.

 

[whitelaughter]

This is simply not true. Imagine trying to reach Hawaii from New Zealand when you don't know where Hawaii is or even if it exists! Obviously they must have gone home repeatedly in the course of exploring the Pacific. In fact, they usually paddled against the wind because it was safer; the wind could blow them back home if they didn't find anything.

They *didn't* reach Hawaii from New Zealand! New Zealand was colonised from Polynesia, not the other way around. Paddling against the wind would definitely be safer, but assumes that exploration was planned (rare) and that it was safe to go back (there is is at least one wave of colonisation caused by flight after losing a war, Thor Heyerdayl described following the stories of the war in his Easter island book).

One of the reasons that the trade routes were so long was the need to follow the winds, which means a circular route. From, say Tahiti, you can sail northwest, once you are in the norther hemisphere's wind patterns go a bit further north and then due east and return to Hawaii - and then your home trip is due south until the winds catch you and blow you west.

 

[Abegweit]

They *didn't* reach Hawaii from New Zealand! New Zealand was colonised from Polynesia, not the other way around.

Dood. You really need to stop showing your ignorance to the world. It's embarrassing. New Zealand IS Polynesia, as is Hawaii. Exactly in what order the Polynesians colonized the Pacific is a matter of dispute. The definition of Polynesia is a fact.

Paddling against the wind would definitely be safer, but assumes that exploration was planned (rare)

Of course, it was planned (in the sense that the explorers wanted to find new islands to colonize). They were looking for new lands. How complicated is this?

and that it was safe to go back

Tell me. If you were to go out into totally unknown waters, wouldn't you want to be sure to be able to get back home in case you found nothing? I sure would.

(there is is at least one wave of colonisation caused by flight after losing a war, Thor Heyerdayl described following the stories of the war in his Easter island book).

I have no clue what this might mean.

One of the reasons that the trade routes were so long was the need to follow the winds, which means a circular route.

Ummm... the ONLY reason why the trade routes were long is because, well you see, ... they were long. Tahiti is 2600 miles from Hawaii. In a straight line.

 

[PieceOfMind]

So illuminate me. What is the distinction between an invention and a technology? To me, the former is basically the discovery of the latter. Do you disagree?

You realise you're asking me a question about one of my posts from 2007?

lol I don't really have an opinion on it anymore.

 

[whitelaughter]

Dood. You really need to stop showing your ignorance to the world. It's embarrassing. New Zealand IS Polynesia, as is Hawaii. Exactly in what order the Polynesians colonized the Pacific is a matter of dispute. The definition of Polynesia is a fact.

New Zealand is *often* referred to as part of Polynesia, and just as often as being part of Australasia. Wikipedia isn't reliable, but gives a simple intro:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania#Interpretative_details_and_controversies

In geography, definitions have very little to do with facts and everything to do with politics.

Of course, it was planned (in the sense that the explorers wanted to find new islands to colonize). They were looking for new lands. How complicated is this?

It's not complicated - it's a gross oversimplification. And an unsupported assertion.

Tell me. If you were to go out into totally unknown waters, wouldn't you want to be sure to be able to get back home in case you found nothing? I sure would.

And your wishes would matter how when blown out to sea by a storm?

I have no clue what this might mean.

Then read up on the subject.

Ummm... the ONLY reason why the trade routes were long is because, well you see, ... they were long. Tahiti is 2600 miles from Hawaii. In a straight line.

And the other reason they were long is that you can't do the trip straight line!
Try.
Yes, you can tack in a catamaran. Try it 24 hours a day, with the ocean currents a against you. Then you'll see why the longer route is the only practical option.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Everyone stop quoting Wikipedia. It's the friggin worst source for history. Go there to look up s**t about science, math, martial arts, s**t like that.

Second of all, someone's gotta explain to me how these people traversed huge distances in paddled canoes. How big were these 'canoes'? How did they overcome the whole "we need to eat and have fresh water" thing? What about the logistics of settling a completely new land? Supplies and what not...

I'm not saying I know more, I'm just saying that the logistics of this all seem really hard to believe.

Moderator Action: Watch your language
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[whitelaughter]

Everyone stop quoting Wikipedia. It's the friggin worst source for history. Go there to look up s**t about science, math, martial arts, s**t like that.

Very true. Anyone who has doubt, have a look at the discussion/history pages attached to each wiki, and see how anything controversial gets overwritten by nutters determined to have their say. Still, it is a good place to get names etc for a proper web search.

Second of all, someone's gotta explain to me how these people traversed huge distances in paddled canoes. How big were these 'canoes'? How did they overcome the whole "we need to eat and have fresh water" thing? What about the logistics of settling a completely new land? Supplies and what not...

I'm not saying I know more, I'm just saying that the logistics of this all seem really hard to believe.

Okay, this is a (admittedly large) Maori war canoe:
http://goaustralia.about.com/od/discovernewzealand/ig/Bay-of-Islands/Waka.htm

As you can see, these aren't little rowboats. Interestingly, the maximum size is dictated by wave action; boats larger than this are *less* stable, as a medium size vessel can 'go with the flow' while a larger vessel has to plough through the waves.

Food - The start of this article has a brief sum up of the ecospheres that ships form: I don't know enough about genetics to judge whether it handles that subject correctly, but the stuff on Heyerdayl is correct:
http://www.users.on.net/~mkfenn/GeneticsrewritesPacificprehistory.htm
Not that the article quotes theories and stories verbatim, including the most outlandish ones.

Catamarans are awesome - they are much easier to handle than a regular sailing boat, can carry more, and move faster. The downside is you don't have a keel, much less a centreboard, so going against the wind is a nightmare. Most of what I know about them is from actually mucking around in them though.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Rock on. That's awesome. Fishing and hunting while at sea. I imagine that more than a few died on journeys where bad storms or food droughts occurred, but still awesome.

 

[Antilogic]

Or just make Constitution reachable by Oracle slingshot (i.e. earlier in the tech tree).
Though I'm not sure that ancient Athens had a written constitution. Aristotle wrote about their 'constitution', but not sure that they had a written one. Edit; apparently they did.

Hm...gives me a mod idea. Constitution reachable from Code of Law (by a great person), with Paper as a pathway but not a pre-req to Constitution. Hmmm...

Supposedly, Aristotle collected 30 constitutions from various Greek poleis and compared them in one of his classic works. Unfortunately, this is now lost to us. We know from excerpts he at least mentioned Athens, Corinth, Thebes (in Boeotia, not Egypt), and Sparta.

I have thought about a similar switch (Pyramids for Parthenon benefits), but could it have a significant effect on gameplay? The Pyramids are expensive, so the time when you build them is usually delayed from the the point at which you research them.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I have thought about a similar switch (Pyramids for Parthenon benefits), but could it have a significant effect on gameplay? The Pyramids are expensive, so the time when you build them is usually delayed from the the point at which you research them.

To reverse the affect on gameplay, simply switch the build costs when you switch the benefits. After all, this is simply about what makes more sense with respect to history, right? I really couldn't care less. I'm fine with 'Mids as is.

 

[Antilogic]

I was taking that as a given.

Moreso, I was referring to the fact that the Pyramids are rarely built early in the game (read: before you get Aesthetics), because of the expense. Generally, you need some cities up to make units and cover your wonder-building city (helps if you have stone as well, but that's obvious).

Additional great person emergence doesn't feel any more right for the Pyramids than any government, to be honest.

In terms of other wonder flips, I was thinking about giving the Great Wall +25% defense from Chichen Itza, and then giving Chichen Itza +1 from corn, rice, and wheat. When I discovered I couldn't do that for every city, I figured the +100% great general emergence might be a fair benefit...I don't know. Haven't tried it seriously yet.

 

[Flying Pig]

It always irks me with the Pyramids that hey do nothing religious - which is their whole reason for existance. Like the Spiral Minaret, prehaps they sholud provide 0.5 free experiance points to al units in all cities per religious building?