Some Logical Questions about the Big Bang and Evolution

[betazed]

Scientists still don't understand how fish who live in the same environment can evolve into different species. Very interesting stuff!

I thought that was well understood. Behavorial segregation leading to genetic drift.

 

[carlosMM]

The puzzling part of these furu is that they live in one lake and evolve in different directions. I've read a book on it by a biologist who worked on these fish for years. Scientists still don't understand how fish who live in the same environment can evolve into different species. Very interesting stuff!

behavioral differences resulting directly or indirectly (size, et.c) from mutation.

You just need a selctive pressure that SPLITS the population (i.e. the biggest and the smallest have an advantage over the medium sized one).

Admittedly, it is much rarer than speciation by geographic isolation. And far less easy to prove.

 

[Neomega]

The basic reason why the above questions are meaningless is that you cannot compare two vectors (velocity is a vector, time is also a vector in GR) unless they are at the same point.

Perhaps vector is not the right word? I thought vectors do not have a location, just direction and length.

As for the sun thing that you asked, yes we will feel the dissappearance of the sun at the same time we see it dissappear. So will the rest of the Universe. Everyone will feel it at the same time he/she/it sees it dissappear.

Perhaps you knew this was coming, but to me this seems to be not hearing a tree fall in the woods.

So Neomega, here's my final 2 cents. Don't take everything you read seriously.

I like GR, and contemplate it often. Doesn't mean I take it seriously.

My problem with GR is it seems to be based in perception. Everything about it seems to be based on the sense humans use the most, the sense of sight, the sense of light detection.

Regarding philosophy, I find it funny mathematicians who poo-poo philosophy, since philosophy is the root of logic, and logic the root of mathematics. Surely it took a bit of philosophy on Copernicus' part to predict the Earth goes around the sun! Indeed, Einstein was trying to prove the philosophical ether when he discovered the theory of Relativity. And before it was mathematically writ, it had to be philosophy.

My SERIOUS problem with GR is when it is used to state that the universe began with the Big Bang. Why must there be a beginning? Because the mathemetician requires everything be quantified? And infinite time and universe is not boundable?

 

[betazed]

Perhaps vector is not the right word? I thought vectors do not have a location, just direction and length.

Welcome to the world of GR. Yes, vector is not the right word, but I did not want to be more geeky than I usually am and use the precise mathematical term tangent vector. A tangent vector has a length, a direction and it is associated with a specific point on a manifold and thus has a location.

Perhaps you knew this was coming, but to me this seems to be not hearing a tree fall in the woods.

Why? You hear the tree fall when you see it fall. Where do you see any contradiction in that?

Regarding philosophy, I find it funny mathematicians who poo-poo philosophy, since philosophy is the root of logic, and logic the root of mathematics. Surely it took a bit of philosophy on Copernicus' part to predict the Earth goes around the sun! Indeed, Einstein was trying to prove the philosophical ether when he discovered the theory of Relativity. And before it was mathematically writ, it had to be philosophy.

I do not pooh-pooh philosophy. Not at all. I only ask that philosophy be studied separately from mathematical physics and that these two should not be confused. There are plenty of questions for philosophers to ponder. Can't they leave physics aside? It is not like we are building a Deep Thought and driving them out of business are we (if you know what I mean)?

My SERIOUS problem with GR is when it is used to state that the universe began with the Big Bang. Why must there be a beginning? Because the mathemetician requires everything be quantified? And infinite time and universe is not boundable?

GR specifically does not say that the universe started with a Big Bang. GR can accomodate a big bang model or a steady state model. In fact Einstein did precisely that when he added a cosmological constant to his equation. He did this to make GR compatible with a steady state model in which the universe does not change with time.

The reason why big bang is widely accepted today is because of all the other evidence which have already been mentioned in this thread.

Finally,

the internet does have some nice GR sites not the least of which is the site by John Baez. You can find it here. If nothing do read the Oz and the Wizard part of the link. It is a very humorous reading and it will provide some key insights to GR while you laugh to your heart's content.

 

[vonork]

REgarding, inflation, big bang, what was before that and so on, I belive the theory regarding membranes shall have some input on that.

 

[Zwelgje]

I thought that was well understood. Behavorial segregation leading to genetic drift.

I think you're absolutely correct but from what I gathered that's a theory that is not so very old at all. Until recently evolution was thought to create more species only because of physical separation.

One theory was that Lake Victoria knew prolonged dry periods in which various smaller pools would exist, in these pools new species would form (because of physical separation). However when DNA was analysed it became clear that the species had divided quite recently while the dry periods where long before the split into different species.

Furu almost became extinct because of the introduction of Nile Bass some years ago. Various species were completely whiped out. In the past years new species have formed replacing the whiped out species. Evolution is actually happening there at a blistering speed.

 

[carlosMM]

I think you're absolutely correct but from what I gathered that's a theory that is not so very old at all. Until recently evolution was thought to create more species only because of physical separation.

One theory was that Lake Victoria knew prolonged dry periods in which various smaller pools would exist, in these pools new species would form (because of physical separation). However when DNA was analysed it became clear that the species had divided quite recently while the dry periods where long before the split into different species.

Furu almost became extinct because of the introduction of Nile Bass some years ago. Various species were completely whiped out. In the past years new species have formed replacing the whiped out species. Evolution is actually happening there at a blistering speed.

behavioral goes back to Wallace.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

In Catholic elementary school, I had a nun that taught us science and religon. She taught us the big bang theory. I thought I was a wise guy and I asked her, "Sister, isn't that in conflict with what you taught us in religon class?"

"Mr. Bugsy, Genesis states that God said, 'Let there be light,' correct? "
"Yes, ma'am"
"Don't you think that there would be a great deal of light with a big bang?"
"Yes, ma'am"
"So who's to say that this couldn't be one of the ways God created the universe. The first line says that 'In the beginning God created the heavens...' Maybe that's how he did it. You and I will never know."

 

[Provolution]

Frankly , I do not care on how the world was created, it is only a source of cheap localized political control asserted with the help of false scientifc/theological arguments.

 

[ManOfMiracles]

In Catholic elementary school, I had a nun that taught us science and religon. She taught us the big bang theory. I thought I was a wise guy and I asked her, "Sister, isn't that in conflict with what you taught us in religon class?"

"Mr. Bugsy, Genesis states that God said, 'Let there be light,' correct? "
"Yes, ma'am"
"Don't you think that there would be a great deal of light with a big bang?"
"Yes, ma'am"
"So who's to say that this couldn't be one of the ways God created the universe. The first line says that 'In the beginning God created the heavens...' Maybe that's how he did it. You and I will never know."

I like her! That's close to my attitude except when I get my turn for a face-to-face with my Maker, I'm gonna ask.

 

[Neomega]

Hmm, interesting,

In poking around the web searching for some thermodynamic information, I ended up at baez's ucr.edu site.... got lost for a while.