Some questions on Siberia

[RedRalph]

Dachs, you may know did anyone else ever seriously consider trying to take over all or part of Siberia? Seems like something the Brits would have at least considered...

 

[Lone Wolf]

British ships visited the future Vladivostok bay in 1856. The Brits named the bay "Port May". Dunno if they had any colonization plans there, but they possibly would have made such plans, at least.

Vladivostok is not exactly Siberia, though.

 

[Tee Kay]

British ships visited the future Vladivostok bay in 1856. The Brits named the bay "Port May". Dunno if they had any colonization plans there, but they possibly would have made such plans, at least.

Vladivostok is not exactly Siberia, though.

At the time it wasn't even Russian territory, but Manchu.

 

[Lone Wolf]

At the time it wasn't even Russian territory, but Manchu.

True. Of course, the peoples of these lands, brutally oppressed by Beijing, gladly joined the brotherhood of Russian people

 

[ParkCungHee]

how could japan do it? By the time japan was even willing to acknowledge the outside world, russia was already there.

1609?

 

[Dachs]

Dachs, you may know did anyone else ever seriously consider trying to take over all or part of Siberia? Seems like something the Brits would have at least considered...

Take it over from the Russians after they got it? After the Amur River imbroglio with the Qing, I can't think of anything until the Russian Civil War when the Japanese occupied part of Siberia. I'm sure the British were at least interested in it much earlier, and there might be something in the late 18th century (since the British were getting into shouting matches over Nootka Sound and the Vancouver area with the Spanish and Russians in the 1780s IIRC, so they certainly were interested in the north Pacific, and Pitt the Younger loved grandiose partition plans). Don't recall any specifics, though.

 

[aronnax]

True. Of course, the peoples of these lands, brutally oppressed by Beijing, gladly joined the brotherhood of Russian people

The Manchu-origin Qing Dynasty are oppressing the people in the lands of the Manchus?

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Manchu-origin Qing Dynasty are oppressing the people in the lands of the Manchus?

That's what a Soviet publication from 1951 told me. It depicted a mean stupid Imperial Chinese official ousted by a brave smart Russian explorer, to the joy of all native peoples. To be fair, the Russian Czar was also portrayed as mean and stupid.

 

[Dachs]

Actually, that was a common thread in late-19th century Russian Asiatic-ideology publications and propaganda. According to this line of thought, the Russians shared similarities with the "other" Oriental peoples like the Buryats, Siberians, Manjus, Mongols, and the rest of Inner Asia, which would help Russia liberate them from the corrupt and inefficient rule of the hapless Qing. Entertaining discussion of same in Schimmelpenninck van der Oye (2001) and the same author's recent 2010 publication, the latter of which I really ought to get around to reading eventually.

 

[aronnax]

A sentiment shared by many Europeans in the pass who grouped Russia as part of the wandering "savages" of Asia.

 

[Yeekim]

the largest (and most inhospitable) territory in the world

Umm what? The coldest town in Earth may be in Siberia, but that does not mean the whole region is polar desert encased in permafrost. What exactly makes temperate broadleaf forests "most inhospitable territory in the world"?

 

[Traitorfish]

That's what a Soviet publication from 1951 told me. It depicted a mean stupid Imperial Chinese official ousted by a brave smart Russian explorer, to the joy of all native peoples. To be fair, the Russian Czar was also portrayed as mean and stupid.

Soviet Russia had such a schizophrenic attitude towards its own past.

 

[plarq]

Read: Russian people--good, Czar--bad, other people--fool

 

[Incodcito]

What might have happened the territory if Russia hadn't colonised it? Let's say because of war, famine, or political reasons Russia decides to expand west or even not expand at all, what might be Siberia's status now?

I would think the Qing might have expanded a little bit further to the North then in OTL. The Japanese probably would have staked and held more claims along the Pacific Coast of Siberia, along with taking over some of Qing-Administered Siberia(what little that would be).

I'd wager to say that absent Russian Colonization, what little development we have today would not exist at all in the interior, apart for a few trading posts along major rivers.

 

[RedRalph]

Umm what? The coldest town in Earth may be in Siberia, but that does not mean the whole region is polar desert encased in permafrost. What exactly makes temperate broadleaf forests "most inhospitable territory in the world"?

Hyperbole, but it's up there. Supplying and maintaining the place from Japan would be an absolute nightmare, even now the Russians can't develop much of the place mainly due to its geography and climate.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Soviet Russia had such a schizophrenic attitude towards its own past.

Russia is a country with an unpredictable past.
-Russian saying.

 

[Traitorfish]

Russia is a country with an unpredictable past.
-Russian saying.

 

[Yeekim]

Hyperbole, but it's up there. Supplying and maintaining the place from Japan would be an absolute nightmare, even now the Russians can't develop much of the place mainly due to its geography and climate.

Yeah well, Japan is behind the sea. Also note that the meaning of "develop" has noticeably changed over the years - back then it primarily meant "build a log fort and garrison it to bully out tribute from nearby stone-age hunter-gatherers".

Two of your greatest problems would've be big distances and low winter temps - first can be overcome with simple patience and second combated with firewood and furs, both of which could be found in abundance. Note that unlike e.g. sub-Saharan Africa, there were no tropical diseases to slow down colonization while natives were mostly few in number and not especially warlike (with the notable exception of Chukchi, who couldn't really be subdued almost up to Soviet times; I believe the overabundance of Chukchi jokes in Russian folklore is indirect result of Russians' frustration at constantly getting their *sses kicked there).

Russia is a country with an unpredictable past.
-Russian saying.

The best humor is always true!

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah well, Japan is behind the sea.

So was Britain.

 

[Yeekim]

So was Britain.

Which is why neither of them succeeded?