Soren Johnson's Old World

[steveg700]

That this is weird but only b/c we're used to civs and other 4Xs that have unique wonders... though I'm starting to not hate this model only b/c it felt more exciting to race to see who could get the enormous amount of resources first, rather than a race to see who could generate more hammers. Though at the same time, it felt extremely cheesy that I was able to immediately claim 3 Wonders in one turn b/c i had a ton of resources.

I agree with stinger: The race still exists and it is very real. Gathering the material is not trivial and other uses for it have to be postponed to reach the target numbers. There is planning involved and opportunity costs.

Personally, I am actually very pleased by OW’s take on wonder. Gone are the frustrating days, when wonders got snapped away one turn before being finished, something that I (and probably not only I) hated in all 6 iterations of ‘Civilization’.
Sure, us Civ players are used to this misery. But this is not, how it necessarily has to be in a 4X game!

Well, when building a wonder is competitive, there's a risk-reward element of gameplay. In Civ VI, you definitely have tricks to master that let you "get gud", like timing chops and socketing trade routes. The missing piece is being able to easily reference who has started or completed projects, I get bothered when a civ ninjas me out of a wonder because I had no idea there was competition in the first place.

In Old World, you get a notification that someone has claimed dibs, and that's it. The time to build is fixed, and only diverts the worker (or, for Builder leaders, workers). Kinda underwhelming. I certainly like that wonders require resource conditions, but I don't agree that condition constitutes a satisfying element of race, particularly in the later game when gold is plentiful and I can buy 1000 stone at a go easily. Wonders aren't unlocked individually either, they just get unlocked in waves by upgrading culture levels in a city. Since the capital is usually going to level up faster than other cities, there's a certain chance all the wonders will be concentrated there. It all lends to a certain lack of dynamics that keeps wonder-building from feeling monumental rather than procedural. Maybe if the wonders had stages and different requirements for each stage, like technologies or special resources (e.g. marble, gold).

Certainly the game could benefit from something competitive outside of warfare. Right now, the game is very introverted. I don't really have any insight into what other civ's are doing, what kind of leader they have, what their goals are. When I finally got into spymasters, I found they really didn't do much in the way of international intrigue. I mean, they only assassinate your own people.

 

[Thrakse]

On the wonders topic, I think the game just has a different approach so you focus on different things. There is more focus on selecting your improvement and specialists build than in Civ where you chop everything at first. This leads to a different game for wonders. I find th egame much more coherent than a Civ VI where a lot of bonusses and actions are driven by buffs from game mechanisms all over, but with little sense of logical progression in it.

On Difficulty level Strong, I managed to take out Rome yesterday, which was much stronger than me (probably 70 vs 40 units). It requires a fair bit of planning prior to the attack, building up a lot of units but with a tactical sense of it, with more focus on each's role in the attack, scouts to see what's coming, and using a lot the terrain's choke points to control the defense of one side of my empire while I attack the other one. I did enjoy it. Sure still some units seems to appear a bit out of the blue, but it's much easier to tackle with an increased tactical approach to it.

 

[steveg700]

So, did anyone figure out the "transport" feature of ships mentioned earlier? Anchor a ship, try to move a unit onto it, no go.

I've tried different permutations of this, figuring there was some way to at least use the ship as a stepping stone, given that military ships will travel by water as long as they end their turn on land. Even tried arranging one ship at the entry point and one at the exit. No go. Though maybe harbors were needed as they entry point, but also no go.

Have not seen the AI transport units across water, so perhaps this is just not a functioning feature ATM.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

So, did anyone figure out the "transport" feature of ships mentioned earlier? Anchor a ship, try to move a unit onto it, no go.

I've tried different permutations of this, figuring there was some way to at least use the ship as a stepping stone, given that military ships will travel by water as long as they end their turn on land. Even tried arranging one ship at the entry point and one at the exit. No go. Though maybe harbors were needed as they entry point, but also no go.

Have not seen the AI transport units across water, so perhaps this is just not a functioning feature ATM.

When you anchor a transport unit, there should be a white border that shows up on the water tiles that shows the transports "range". You should then be able to move land units through those water tiles.

 

[Elhoim]

So, did anyone figure out the "transport" feature of ships mentioned earlier? Anchor a ship, try to move a unit onto it, no go.

I've tried different permutations of this, figuring there was some way to at least use the ship as a stepping stone, given that military ships will travel by water as long as they end their turn on land. Even tried arranging one ship at the entry point and one at the exit. No go. Though maybe harbors were needed as they entry point, but also no go.

Have not seen the AI transport units across water, so perhaps this is just not a functioning feature ATM.

Just move to the other shore, not "onto" the ship.

 

[steveg700]

Just move to the other shore, not "onto" the ship.

Yes, I've anchored the ship at another shore to see if the unit can move to the shore. It has not been able to do this. I've tried different types of units, starting with mounted units (because I want to make sure a unit can actually make it without a march). Still no go. And the land is not part of some other civ's territory, so it's not a matter of closed borders.

 

[alexman]

I believe the ship needs to be anchored in the previous turn to allow water movement

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I just noticed that you can rush buy units using different resources. That would have totally changed things in the game I just gave up on

 

[steveg700]

I just noticed that you can rush buy units using different resources. That would have totally changed things in the game I just gave up on

Yeah, makes some leader types like Zealots and Scholars appealing. But normally you have to sacrifice population to rush.

 

[Stringer1313]

Yeah, makes some leader types like Zealots and Scholars appealing. But normally you have to sacrifice population to rush.

Speaking of, does anyone actually choose Slavery? You have to be pretty desperate right? I don't think sacrificing population units is a good move, and plus you get the unhappiness. Moreover even if you needed slavery in the short term you'd still have to pay 400 hammers to get out of it. Does anyone actually choose this?

 

[steveg700]

I'll take slavery, sure. If wanting +5 orders is desperate, then perhaps I have been desperate. It's good for when you want to fight early. I've stopped being anemic about unhappiness.

 

[Roald Amundsen]

Never liked the unpredictable Wonder Races and in fact anything wonder related in newer iterations of Civ. I think Old World's way of handling this is superior. My wish for the Civ-series was always that any Civ could build all wonders, but it would be a HUGE investment and being first to complete them would offer extra bonuses. And one could even choose how much resources to pump into the wonders, investing economy into monuments at a great scale. Many civilizations built pyramids. Egypt built some really great ones.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

Just my 0.02 on the wonder races...I like the way Old World does it. Once you invest all of your resources and plop that wonder down, you're guaranteed to get it. I HATE having my wonder sniped with 1 turn to go. The race to accumulate the resources necessary, especially on higher difficulty levels, is not to be underestimated, especially as you start with a smaller pool of resources to begin with. If you want a wonder, you really have to put a lot of the other aspects of your economy on hold.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I'll take slavery, sure. If wanting +5 orders is desperate, then perhaps I have been desperate. It's good for when you want to fight early. I've stopped being anemic about unhappiness.

Me too, I used to be way more apprehensive about causing more unhappiness.

 

[steveg700]

Never liked the unpredictable Wonder Races and in fact anything wonder related in newer iterations of Civ. I think Old World's way of handling this is superior. My wish for the Civ-series was always that any Civ could build all wonders, but it would be a HUGE investment and being first to complete them would offer extra bonuses. And one could even choose how much resources to pump into the wonders, investing economy into monuments at a great scale. Many civilizations built pyramids. Egypt built some really great ones.

I think you're leaning into how I always thought wonders should work.

Wonders are just jumped-up versions of other things. Usually, a monument, but in some cases a library, a lighthouse, a temple, a market, a fortress, an opera house...So, stuff that can be built anyway. Why not just have the option to invest in a "grand" or "wondrous" version of those buildings, and then they offer some benefits in a first-come-first-serve fashion (similar to Civ's pantheons and belief selections). It's competitive in a way that isn't all-or-nothing.

But I definitely prefer Civ VI's race to the finish rather than more spurious notion that Old World is about a race to the starting line. And I certainly prefer Civ VI's design where you simply might not meet the condition to build the wonder in the first place, as opposed to Old World wonders that only require amassing the game's universal resources of food, wood, metal, or stone. No desert? No Great Pyramids (which I have yet to *not* get beaten to by the AI, so I guess it must be good).

 

[Wildmick]

I'm enjoying old world. Its different. Would be nice if the roads were easier to see, need a magnifying glass to see if there is a road in this hex or not.. would be nice if we could favourite a worker, (like have a gold border around its symbol or something so we know. this is guy is the road builder) coz i often accidently assign him to building stuff.. where did my road builder go..

I'm getting some pretty major memory leaks.. anyone else getting these? after about 30 turns i start getting yellow warning text.. time to save, exit, reload. From experience i've discovered that if i leave it, the text messages eventually turn red, the game freezes and i gotta do a hard close. By about turn 125, its every 10 turns. the more i get into the game more the memory leaks and have to save, exit and reload.. its quite disruptive.

I realise its early access, and optimisations haven't been implemented yet.. but i'm looking forward to it getting optimised.

I'm not a very warlike player, so i avoid wars and focus on the economy side of things, and i like that i can win by ambitions, rather than conquest or filling the world with cities, granted i'm in front on the # cities front.. (gotta camp those city sites pronto & pump out the settlers), but that'll change mid game. The more i play the more i recognise which ambitions are easy to achieve.

One question tho? My main character has his ambitions, but then some of my family have ambitions too? do thier ambitions count towards my ambitions? or are they just fluff to give the other family members purpose?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

What's the secret to getting units built faster? I think I'm getting the hang of the rest of the economy but I'm having a hard time finding a source of shields. Maybe I'm just using the wrong guys.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Never liked the unpredictable Wonder Races and in fact anything wonder related in newer iterations of Civ. I think Old World's way of handling this is superior. My wish for the Civ-series was always that any Civ could build all wonders, but it would be a HUGE investment and being first to complete them would offer extra bonuses. And one could even choose how much resources to pump into the wonders, investing economy into monuments at a great scale. Many civilizations built pyramids. Egypt built some really great ones.

That's an excellent idea, very realistic as well!

I'm enjoying old world. Its different. Would be nice if the roads were easier to see, need a magnifying glass to see if there is a road in this hex or not.. would be nice if we could favourite a worker, (like have a gold border around its symbol or something so we know. this is guy is the road builder) coz i often accidently assign him to building stuff.. where did my road builder go..

I'm getting some pretty major memory leaks.. anyone else getting these? after about 30 turns i start getting yellow warning text.. time to save, exit, reload. From experience i've discovered that if i leave it, the text messages eventually turn red, the game freezes and i gotta do a hard close. By about turn 125, its every 10 turns. the more i get into the game more the memory leaks and have to save, exit and reload.. its quite disruptive.

I realise its early access, and optimisations haven't been implemented yet.. but i'm looking forward to it getting optimised.

I'm not a very warlike player, so i avoid wars and focus on the economy side of things, and i like that i can win by ambitions, rather than conquest or filling the world with cities, granted i'm in front on the # cities front.. (gotta camp those city sites pronto & pump out the settlers), but that'll change mid game. The more i play the more i recognise which ambitions are easy to achieve.

One question tho? My main character has his ambitions, but then some of my family have ambitions too? do thier ambitions count towards my ambitions? or are they just fluff to give the other family members purpose?

I wish there was a way to automate road building as well. Your idea of 'favoriting' a work is cool. I not only don't know how to see family ambitions, but I don't know how to see what luxuries they're amenable to either.

What's the secret to getting units built faster? I think I'm getting the hang of the rest of the economy but I'm having a hard time finding a source of shields. Maybe I'm just using the wrong guys.

That's an excellent question, and one I'd love to know the answer to as well.

 

[Silver Marmot]

At the start, I use a training family (champions/hunters/riders) to produce units. Their cities start with 10 training instead of 8, which means 6 turns to produce a warrior/slinger (60 training) instead of 8 turns. Champions family seat gets an extra +25% training, which means it starts at 12.5 training (15 with Rome). Once I research military drill I aim to have workers ready to build two barracks in the training city. They each give +2 training so together they boost the city from 10 to 14 training, which means about 4 turns per warrior/slinger.

 

[steveg700]

What's the secret to getting units built faster? I think I'm getting the hang of the rest of the economy but I'm having a hard time finding a source of shields. Maybe I'm just using the wrong guys.

That's an excellent question, and one I'd love to know the answer to as well.

So, here's how it looks to me: whenever you put something in the build queue, there's a "Cost" requirement which you have to pay to start building, and then a "Build" requirement which reflects how much you have to generate per turn in that city until it's built.

For a military unit, you have to pay an up-front cost that's some combination of food, metal, or wood, and then you pay Training each turn until it's built. So, to produce military units more quickly, you do things like build barrack and range improvements, or build a garrison so you can assign a governor with high Courage (since that stat yields Training per turn). My best city for military had a governor with +8 Courage. It was nice while it lasted.

Note that some military building (strongholds, citadels) seem to actually penalize training. Which may make a sort of sense (their defensive capabilities consumes training resources) but it also sort of counter-intuitive in terms of player expectations.

@Elhoim seems to have a firm handle on things, so perhaps he can confirm.