Soul Scourge [Game Thread - Concluded]

[spaceman98]

Mafia don't kill every person that is skeptical of them. That paints a big red target.

The wine in front of me, or the wine in front of you?

Its lylo. You don't need to kill every single person who suspects you. You just need to kill one.

 

[Visorslash]

I've seen your response, and tbh I'm not impressed by it



Here, for reference, are Jarrema's last posts:





Pretty much all he's doing is asserting that he's town and begging you to vote for someone other than him.

Of course, it turns out that he genuinely WAS town (which is one thing that makes me trust Zack more: Zack claimed to have protected him on a no-kill night). However, I see nothing too inspiring in his defense.

Jarrema is not Askthepizzaguy. He's not a big textwally guy. But what he posted was the most townie thing he had posted all game and it convinced me. The appeal was townielike in tone and the idea of it itself. I know what Jarrema is like, and I thought he was telling the truth.

lol Visor, if I was scourge, I would have voted Zack as you expected me to, and sat twirling my demonic moustache while he got lynched. I wouldn't have bothered with anything so... elaborate.

Lol @ the wifom going on here. Or, you could have realised that I was a better target, I've been all over the place this game.

Frankly, this post reads like a desperate scourge, realizing that they won't be able to get their intended target lynched, and realizing that unless they can convince said target to vote with them, they'll be the ones to hang.

Frankly, this post reads like a desperate townie, realizing that they won't be able to get their intended target lynched, and realizing that unless they can convince said target to vote with them, they'll be the ones to hang.

My job is to convince the other townie (ignoring inactives) to not vote for me and therefore for the scum.. I'm still not that sure who it is. But I'm have to try.

Certain? Hardly. Nonetheless, I was least suspicious of him, because the reason for his innocence, no matter how week, is the only objective one. Every other person we only have in-thread posts for. On the other hand, the evidence for Sam's innocence came from night actions and results, which are objective information, reflective of actual roles.

As Visor said earlier, in these sorts of situations, assumptions had to be made, and given what I knew, assuming Sam was town was the most reasonable way to narrow down the list.

Some valid points here, though with other people claiming spearmen the claim got more nullified, though sams behaviour did seem pretty reasonable.

 

[Visorslash]

And I guess thats it then? If there is a townie amongst you, I'd like you to point out what actually scummy things I did? Because you haven't really done so yet.

 

[Zack]

And I guess thats it then? If there is a townie amongst you, I'd like you to point out what actually scummy things I did? Because you haven't really done so yet.

Let's see...

Rank them, damn it. For someone who was so insistent on other people doing it the other day, you sure are hesitant to do it yourself.

You've been pressuring people to explain themselves and give lists of suspects all game, while avoiding doing the same when people directly ask you. spaceman also mentioned you repeatedly dodging his questions. You have a lot of votes where you abruptly change with no explanation at all. You're a big hypocrite. You've dogged people for the same crap you've been doing all game.

This goes hand-in-hand with your overzealous demands that everyone get in line or suffer the consequences. See the terrible Sprig lynch Day 1. See how anyone who disagrees with you ends up receiving a vote and accusations from you. You're not open to anyone's ideas except your own.

How easy/lazy! Vote: Visorslash

I voted for inactives before it was cool.

After skewering and trying to lynch me for voting for a less-active player that day (right after there was a night with no kill, and a player who was less active in other mafia games I might add), the very same night you call for people to murder inactives and the next day you start off with a vote on one. If going after inactives is easy, going after someone for "going after inactives" is just as easy. Especially when you're such a damn hypocrite about it.

Why I don't like Visor publicly telling everyone to protect him:

- First of all, why the hell should we trust Visor over anyone else in the first place?

- If everyone is protecting one person, then everyone else is vulnerable. At this point, a spearman's defense dropping from 20 -> 15 in order to protect Visor may very well be the difference between life and death. A more even distribution of protections greatly decreases the chance of the scourge getting in 2 kills, and possibly prevents them from getting any kill in at all.

- Following from the previous point, it allows the scourge to better coordinate their attacks, whether or not Visor is scourge.

It just reeks to me, it makes no sense for a townie to call publicly for EVERYONE to protect them like that unless they have a massive ego, which is admittedly possible.

Self-explanatory.

Real question is, why should anyone believe you're town? What have you done to really help the town? I'm at a loss. spaceman (allegedly) and I have protected people, what have you done? If you really are a swordsman as you've soft-claimed, you certainly haven't done anything useful. Hell, maybe you even managed to kill someone one night and let the scourge take the credit.

(I'm not even considering the meta reason that you usually don't live this long. Judging by the list of living players and kill patterns, the scourge clearly haven't made an effort to kill active/experienced players such as you, me, and spaceman. Also I hate when people use that reasoning against me. I could easily see spaceman or whoever leaving us both alive so he could keep going on about us being alive as reason for suspicion.)

 

[Zack]

spaceman's at least been willing to participate in an open discourse and maintain an open mind to other's ideas. He hasn't been acting like some sort of demagogue.

 

[Zack]

If Verarde and Count Dingdong are the scourge team, I will drive to Kennigit's house and pillage his computer and hear the lamentations of its circuitry.

 

[Visorslash]

Let's see...


You've been pressuring people to explain themselves and give lists of suspects all game, while avoiding doing the same when people directly ask you. spaceman also mentioned you repeatedly dodging his questions. You have a lot of votes where you abruptly change with no explanation at all. You're a big hypocrite. You've dogged people for the same crap you've been doing all game.

Do you expect such hypocriticalness from mafia? Do you expect such the no reasoned change of directions from mafia? Go check my other mafia games if you need convincing, either of you. I don't suddenly change tack as mafia. Randomness is a feature of my townie game, and so is my obstinate playstyle.

This goes hand-in-hand with your overzealous demands that everyone get in line or suffer the consequences. See the terrible Sprig lynch Day 1. See how anyone who disagrees with you ends up receiving a vote and accusations from you. You're not open to anyone's ideas except your own.

What? I get you like slinging mud on me, but lets look at my d1 votes.

1. Jarrema - what we always do
2. StMarco - because I wanted to see if it was acknowledged (then promptly dropped because i have a poor memory about these things and different tacks yay)
3. Sprig - based on a hunch - read nothing much at all
I then claim role claiming is bad (It is at least for the start of the game)
4. The comment on spaceman is hypocritical I suppose, I tend to forget what I've done previously
5. And then I say voting sprig is better than samsniped because of info and counter wagon

What are you on about?

After skewering and trying to lynch me for voting for a less-active player that day (right after there was a night with no kill, and a player who was less active in other mafia games I might add), the very same night you call for people to murder inactives and the next day you start off with a vote on one. If going after inactives is easy, going after someone for "going after inactives" is just as easy. Especially when you're such a damn hypocrite about it.

Self-explanatory.

Real question is, why should anyone believe you're town? What have you done to really help the town? I'm at a loss. spaceman (allegedly) and I have protected people, what have you done? If you really are a swordsman as you've soft-claimed, you certainly haven't done anything useful. Hell, maybe you even managed to kill someone one night and let the scourge take the credit.

Because I chose a role that attacks makes me inherently antitown? I chose swordsman because killing people is one of the fun parts of this game. And no I haven't done anything useful, swordsman require at least other attack to kill a townie and all I seem to hit are either mafia or spearman.

(I'm not even considering the meta reason that you usually don't live this long. Judging by the list of living players and kill patterns, the scourge clearly haven't made an effort to kill active/experienced players such as you, me, and spaceman. Also I hate when people use that reasoning against me. I could easily see spaceman or whoever leaving us both alive so he could keep going on about us being alive as reason for suspicion.)

I get the feeling that whatever I did doesn't matter. I dont even know who I'm trying to convince.

 

[Visorslash]

You won't consider the meta reason but you mention it. I'd put you in that same boat.

The protect myself post is wifom - I don't actually expect to be protected, I expect players to make decisions of their own accord, it is done so that the mafia might think twice about targets and potentially second guess themselves, and hell I know I'm town, and I thought I was doing a reasonably good showcase of not perfect townie behaviour but decent, so if I was protected so much the better.

Even if you weren't so blinded (not saying I'm much better), of your apparent dislike for me and the way I play, your utter refusal to consider me town does surprise me (if you are town, if scum, it all makes sense of course).

I'll unvote for now. If one of you decide to switch off me, which I doubt, I'll be ready to vote then, but I don't really know who I'd vote for until then.

 

[Zack]

After review, I think I confused you with spaceman on the sprig thing.

your utter refusal to consider me town

I was responding to your snide question. I gave reasons, and highlighted points I had already made. Make a thorough case on spaceman and I might be convinced. Hell, I was never really sure why you were so convinced I'm scourge, you never said why or gave reasons.

The main things that bother me:

- You rode me hard when I voted Verarde after there wasn't a kill, saying it was an easy vote or some crap even though there was nothing else to go on at the time (and Verarde was not quite as inactive at the time as he is now). You scared everyone off of voting for inactives after the clear message that going after inactives gets you lynched. I would be shocked if Verarde and Count Dingdong are both town, I think it's incredibly unlikely. Yet, they're going to survive because of how fiercely you and spaceman protected them. This point also applies to spaceman, but...

- In addition, you (Visor) have been calling for people to "cull inactives" all game - on Day 1, even right after you scolded me for voting Verarde. This in particular made it seem like you only went after me because it was easy, ironically.

- The attitude that everyone who disagrees with you is scum and needs to die. Anyone who challenges your ideas is an enemy in your eyes. Contrast this with spaceman, who has been very open to discussing ideas and willing to change his mind and not stubbornly label everyone else as wrong/scum. This is especially annoying considering that you've been consistently wrong (as has everyone else).

- Again, you've often refused to answer questions or give reasoning. I don't see a plausible town reason for this. The former bothers me a lot more than the latter.

You can get away with this stuff when you're getting tangible results, but every single dead player is town. It's not working. Trying to force everyone to get in line and do what you want hasn't gotten us any closer to a victory, so either you're having a bad game or you're scum.

Taken all together*, it's definitely not indicative of town.

*relevant comic spoilered

Spoiler :

 

[Zack]

Don't wave the "you just don't like my playstyle" card at me. I don't complain about it when results are forthcoming. I don't think this is necessarily your normal playstyle anyways, usually you at least listen to other people.

 

[Visorslash]

Just under 2 hours. I'll try and make a somewhat decent case on spaceman for you at the very least. I have to give it a shot.

 

[Kennigit]

I will WOG the inactives at end of phase

 

[Zack]

I will WOG the inactives at end of phase

Isn't it lylo?

 

[Zack]

2 Visorslash (spaceman, Zack)

3 not voting (Verarde, Count Dingdong, Visor)

 

[Count Dingdong]

I've been reading through and trying to see why people think Visor is scourge. I still don't see it, and I've been feeling him town this entire game (at least with what attention I could give it; there's a reason I'm not joining any games at the moment... >.>). As such, I'm going to back his vote at spaceman98. Verarde looks bound to AL, so that would leave at least one scourge dead if spaceman goes. If I'm wrong, and Visor's scourge, so be it, but I'm staying with the read I've had of him all game.

 

[Zack]

Isn't it lylo?

Wait. I'm an idiot.

 

[Visorslash]

Okay. Let's start with D1.

Spaceman claims to both me and Zack and wants to network. I will note that both Zack and I refuse to network. I also had a lingering suspiscion that spaceman was trying to make a network to infiltrate because he mentioned doing so in Takhisis's recent game.

That said, shopping for Swordsmen is a very questionable action. Vigilantes are always less reliable and less accountable than the lynch, especially this early in the game. Moreover, knowing who the swordsmen are is a gift to the scourges, due to Swordsmen's high attack.

unvote: vote: Sprig

Votes for sprig. Doesn't like a gathering of swordsmen. Opinions can go either way on whether this is good or bad, but I'll put it in the bad, as sprig was being rather open about it and spaceman was very keen to vote him for it.

Yes, but if spearmen properly coordinate their defenses, scourges wouldn't be able to kill anyone (if we followed the "wall of spears" strategy and everyone became spearmen). Even if there are non-spearmen, bowmen and shamans could be coordinated to cover up week spots in the "wall of spears", and the wall could ensure protection for swordsmen and bowmen, whose attack feeds scourges if they get nightkilled.

Again, he encourages networking. The infiltration of a network has more serious consequences in this game than others, as the potential for more kills is a threat. And then the town has to be correct in all its picks and so on... very idealised view spaceman is painting here.

His note that vigilantes are less reliable than the lynch is something I would like to pick at. The vigilante doesn't have to convince anyone, and the scum don't have a chance to influence it like a vote. (of course words and etc can, but you know what i mean).

Yes, but if spearmen properly coordinate their defenses, scourges wouldn't be able to kill anyone (if we followed the "wall of spears" strategy and everyone became spearmen). Even if there are non-spearmen, bowmen and shamans could be coordinated to cover up week spots in the "wall of spears", and the wall could ensure protection for swordsmen and bowmen, whose attack feeds scourges if they get nightkilled.



Proof?

The only thing I can find is


which really doesn't indicate that at all.

Smudges sprig again.

There are currently 4 votes on Sprig, myself included... This is a day 1 plurality lynch, so we have to be serious about our lynching decisions this phase. I'm fine with a Sprig lynch, as known swordsmen specifically are a gift to scourges. That said, I would like to avoid a bandwagon this early (on the off chance Sprig isn't scum, it would be trivial for scourges to jump on this wagon), so I will unvote and let Sprig try to convince me why we shouldn't lynch him.

Temporary vote for
vote: stmarco

Lets not let him off the hook for not contributing just because he's new.

Gotta be serious now, he jumps off the wagon he started and goes for stmarco - who IMO likely forgot the game had started. He takes himself out of the limelight with this post.

Down with tradition, up with the new!

Sprig, still waiting for reasons why you aren't a scourge shopping for people with high attack to kill via absorption.

Why would he do it out on the open?

Your asking around for swordsmen. Swordsmen are a high attack role, and a possible threat to scourges if they can get their act together and pick good vig targets. As a scourge, assembling a posy of swordsmen, getting them to vig kill townies with you and having your partners pick them off to greatly increase their own attack is a strong starting strategy, especially for a game like this where the scourges are not guaranteed nightkills.
_______________________________
Of course, we as the town could give you a chance, give you and your posy kill orders in thread (I say kill a non-poster night 1), and if your posy consistently hits townies and has its members killed off (as you following the above strategy predicts it will), we lynch you. The problem with that is that the other two scourges would then still have time to gorge themselves on the attack of the swordsmen you assembled, while staying completely above suspicion, meaning that scourges will still come out of this fairly powerful.

Interesting that he says three scourges here. Maybe he's playing the town, maybe he just read it the same way sprig did.

I also don't like the wagon on Sam. CFC rarely makes productive content on day 1, so its understandable that Sam would caution against analysis into it (this game seems to be an exception to the "no content day 1" rule, and thus Sam is wrong IMO, but wrong doesn't equal scum). The wagon on him arose from seemingly nowhere, and sped up quickly, tying itself with Sprig. I have to wonder if this is Sprig's scourge buddies trying to save him.

Currently its 4 v. 3 so if this was an attempt to save Sprig, it has failed. I'll keep my vote where it is for now, though I'm wondering whether "if in doubt, lynch swordsman" is this town's best policy overall.

Points in his favour here for protecting Sam. He then sticks to his guns and lynches sprig. Possibly trying to get town points.

Why should we assume that the killer was a scourge, rather than a town-sided vig, given how many protection abilities and kill abilities are flying around. Also, I am inclined to trust Visor based on yesterday.

vote: King Morgan


I nominate you as the counterwagon

_________________________________

I would vote for people for not contributing, but at this point there's not yet much to contribute based on.

Suggests that the killer was town rather than scourge. I disagree, scourge are quite powerful, much more likely that they were the killer. Maybe he's trying to get a claim from someone?

Also, why assume that it was Count Dingdong being saved, as opposed to vote: BSmith1068 , who just got derp-voted into the tie right before Zack's suspect post?

Especially with Zack's willingness to lynch Dingdong today, if we really think that there was a scourge on the ropes yesterday, BSmith seems like a more likely candidate.

Now this is interesting, that he would rather lynch Bsmith (inactive city) over Zack. Endgame plan?

If you believe this, then why in the world do you believe that I have a point? My claim was precisely that IF Zack is covering for someone, Zack is probably covering for BSmith. In other words, my case rests on the idea that Zack was covering for a scumpartner in that three way tie, which you are now saying is impossible.


unvote: Vote: Visor

I thought he had a point, but then I thought about and realised it was wrong.

He votes me for changing my mind (badly I might add, but still). I could've not said anything there as scum, no need to draw attention.

Right now, BSmith is still set to get lynched, on reasoning that everyone admits is poor. Not sure I'm happy about this, given that I still don't trust Visor. BSmith, would you like to comment on all of this yourself?

At lot of tallies being posted, not to much else. Now he doesn't trust me. He asks why he's being voted and then changes his tune.

I don't think that lynching inactives is the right plan. Inactivity vs. activity generally is determined by real life or other online commitments, not by team alignment. In general, mafia will be active but unhelpful, not totally inactive. Posting every phase is a minimum that almost everyone who can will meet, at minimum to avoid the WOG.

Therefore vote: Zack. Easy vote, and the other cases are worse.

Follows my easy vote. other cases? trying a bit too much i think.

I think No Kill indicates that spearmen +bowmen +shamans got lucky. We've got three days worth of content in thread. Surely we, as town, can do better than ignoring them? In this game, we have no free information being dispensed upon us at night by scanning roles. We have to actually look at the thread to stand a chance of winning.

The hypocrisy is mildly amusing. There has been little in thread attention. Spaceman hasn't got a lot of original ideas so far.

hmmm...

That's a lot of votes on remake, and I have to admit, there's a strong case against him. Especially since Zack is hosting right now, which explains why he's less active than usual. I'm willing to let Zack off the hook for now, but I don't want to make the remake wagon unstoppable by adding a fifth vote to it.

Thus, I will unvote: vote: Count Dingdong

Yesterday, you graced us with your august presence. Do so today as well, oh count!

This is a bit of s post, the case isn't strong, remake just dug himself a hole. Again drops off the wagon and votes for an inactive for 'pressure'.

Lots of tallies = scum clearly.

remake was semi-active, so initially, voting for him was an easy, non-substantive vote. Then, he spoke up, but until pressured, was unhelpful. That made the vote against him justifiable. Now he's posted this (when extensively pressured).


There's one thing about this post that read town to me:

I'm one of the few publicly on-the-fence people in the thread, and he accuses me. A scourge would probably do their best to lick up to on-the-fence voters.

He then suddenly thinks remake is town but alas too late to save him. Convenient. Then flips again. What?

At this stage I read more town to him than you.

he doesn't trust the two visor voters, zack and jarrema and votes to help me.

You know what, I've got a conclusion to make....

 

[Visorslash]

Spaceman as mafia all he has to do is vote Zack. I've clearly indicated that I trust him up to this point and he clearly has credit in my favour for supporting me. SO why vote me in lylo, why suddenly change his mind?

The only conclusion we can make is that both Zack and Spaceman are scum, spaceman decided to up the difficulty or maybe he's actually town and made a wrong read on me?

In that case, I will go back to voting Zack Unvote; Vote: Zack to be sure.

Dingdong and Spaceman I hope you will follow me, in any case gg scum.

 

[Visorslash]

@Verarde

you're online, get in here and make a vote please

 

[Zack]

I'll lynch spaceman visor. Gotta move your vote first though.